Sentimental - Beautiful - Kitsch

[NatBalance]

Tell me, what on earth is wrong with sentimental, romantic, beautifull? Why is it called kitsch? After all, love makes the world go round does it not? And if we loose our sense of sentimentality I reckon we are done for.

What brought this on was the Playlister piece yesterday morning on Essential Classics, it being Richard Adinsell's masterpiece The Warsaw Concerto, and the idea that this type of music is sentimental rubbish. Good grief, what is going on?

To call this type of music over sentimental I find very sad. To be missing out on such powerfull beautifull music is such a shame. Conservatism and subtlty has its place but surely, to let your emotions rip is a wonderfull feeling, and the human soul needs it, as Liszt discovered. Sing along with those great romantic sweeping melodies. Blow the cobwebs off! Why hold back? What's the point? Remember, variety is the spice of life.

This happens in both music and picture painting. I always remember Steven Fry wanting to put decorative plates into Room 101!!! I mean, gee whiz. Come on now Steven, that is an absolutely terrible choice for Room 101. I respect the guy enormously but he really let himself down in my opinion with that one. I've bought some decorative plates, the artwork is absolutely gorgeous, superb quality, expertly done, take you to another world, which is part of the purpose of art is it not? If you want this world take a photo. The colours are too vibrant in those plates to be of this world but why is that crass, obscene, kitsch? Why can't it beautifull? Art has many functions, not just to portray a deeper meaning or a different interpretation behind what we see.

It seems to me there is a section of people who do not actually feel music itself but need something else to go with it, such as a story, some unusual technicality in its construction, an association, anything but appreciating the music for itself. When I go to classical music concerts it always amazes me to see people sitting stock still whilst some impressive emotional dramatic music is being performed. Now I'm not expecting them to get up out of their seats but heck, there's absolutely nothing moving. Not a foot or hand tapping, no slight swaying …. nothing. I know people who claim to appreciate music but when listing on audio equipment they can quite easily switch it off at any point, even in the middle of a beat or phrase. An expressive part of the music can be talked over or just switched off as if it is nothing. I couldn't do that. I have to wait for an appropriate moment, or fade it out first.

Don't be thinking I'm the type of music lover who thinks a good melody is God. My possible favourite piece of all time is basically a piece of effect music, Holst's Neptune. I'm all for deep thinking, I love art work that explores further into the human soul, I love the avante garde, but there is much more variety to the human soul. It needs to let rip aswell. So I say let's stop it with this kitsch term for beautifull music, this use of the phrase 'chocolate box' as a derogatory term. Chocolate box pictures are beautifull and artwork at one of its highest forms (remember, variety). There's nothing like a good old romantic sweeping tune to satisfy the energy of life within us. That's what I say, and I am unanimous in that.

Rich

[Oakapple]

When I go to classical music concerts it always amazes me to see people sitting stock still whilst some impressive emotional dramatic music is being performed.

It doesn't amaze me; I think they are simply showing manners and respecting the other members of the audience. I certainly don't want to sit next to someone who is humming, swaying and tapping his feet.

But I agree with much of what you say. Someone criticized Tchaikovsky's symphonies for sounding like ballet music. "What's wrong with that?" he responded. I don't think Prokofiev's 7th symphony gets the respect it deserves as a very moving piece and not at all banal in parts.

[gradus]

Tell me, what on earth is wrong with sentimental, romantic, beautifull? Why is it called kitsch? After all, love makes the world go round does it not? And if we loose our sense of sentimentality I reckon we are done for.

What brought this on was the Playlister piece yesterday morning on Essential Classics, it being Richard Adinsell's masterpiece The Warsaw Concerto, and the idea that this type of music is sentimental rubbish. Good grief, what is going on?

To call this type of music over sentimental I find very sad. To be missing out on such powerfull beautifull music is such a shame. Conservatism and subtlty has its place but surely, to let your emotions rip is a wonderfull feeling, and the human soul needs it, as Liszt discovered. Sing along with those great romantic sweeping melodies. Blow the cobwebs off! Why hold back? What's the point? Remember, variety is the spice of life.

This happens in both music and picture painting. I always remember Steven Fry wanting to put decorative plates into Room 101!!! I mean, gee whiz. Come on now Steven, that is an absolutely terrible choice for Room 101. I respect the guy enormously but he really let himself down in my opinion with that one. I've bought some decorative plates, the artwork is absolutely gorgeous, superb quality, expertly done, take you to another world, which is part of the purpose of art is it not? If you want this world take a photo. The colours are too vibrant in those plates to be of this world but why is that crass, obscene, kitsch? Why can't it beautifull? Art has many functions, not just to portray a deeper meaning or a different interpretation behind what we see.

It seems to me there is a section of people who do not actually feel music itself but need something else to go with it, such as a story, some unusual technicality in its construction, an association, anything but appreciating the music for itself. When I go to classical music concerts it always amazes me to see people sitting stock still whilst some impressive emotional dramatic music is being performed. Now I'm not expecting them to get up out of their seats but heck, there's absolutely nothing moving. Not a foot or hand tapping, no slight swaying …. nothing. I know people who claim to appreciate music but when listing on audio equipment they can quite easily switch it off at any point, even in the middle of a beat or phrase. An expressive part of the music can be talked over or just switched off as if it is nothing. I couldn't do that. I have to wait for an appropriate moment, or fade it out first.

Don't be thinking I'm the type of music lover who thinks a good melody is God. My possible favourite piece of all time is basically a piece of effect music, Holst's Neptune. I'm all for deep thinking, I love art work that explores further into the human soul, I love the avante garde, but there is much more variety to the human soul. It needs to let rip aswell. So I say let's stop it with this kitsch term for beautifull music, this use of the phrase 'chocolate box' as a derogatory term. Chocolate box pictures are beautifull and artwork at one of its highest forms (remember, variety). There's nothing like a good old romantic sweeping tune to satisfy the energy of life within us. That's what I say, and I am unanimous in that.

Rich

Although I don't share your love of The Warsaw Concerto I certainly wouldn't deprecate nor sneer at it as kitsch; pastiche perhaps.
I imagine that most if not all on here share your passion for music but some of us are more reserved in our expression of our joy although it will be deeply felt all the same.
Most of my classical concert-going friends are of the stiff-backed never move a muscle variety but I don't doubt their love of the music even though I confess to being unable to restrain the tappng foot or violinists sway in some passages!
Go on as you are and never mind the rest.

[NatBalance]

It doesn't amaze me; I think they are simply showing manners and respecting the other members of the audience. I certainly don't want to sit next to someone who is humming, swaying and tapping his feet.

You can of course go over the top. You can't do what you do at home (what d'you mean you don't move at home either!). And if someone's all out of time …. eeek! Once, a girl infront of me was swaying with the music. I thought it was great. I won't be foot tapping or swaying all the time of course. As long as folk keep in time and they don't do that silly bouncing up and down they do at the Proms.

I don't think Prokofiev's 7th symphony gets the respect it deserves as a very moving piece and not at all banal it parts.

Don't know that one, I'll have a listen. Words like banal and kistch seem to be very often tagged on to music that is very popular.

Gradus, thanks. Glad to read there is someone else who can't stop their foot tapping. Just imagine if the performers didn't move. That would be weird. Which reminds me, did I once see film of Richard Strauss conducting like a robot? It was uncanning, the only thing that moved was his batton. Give me the creeps.

[vinteuil]

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... I prefer the advice given by Couperin in his 1716 Art of Playing the Harpsichord -

"It is better, and more decorous, not to mark time with the head, the body, or the feet. It is necessary to have a relaxed manner at the keyboard, not fixing one’s gaze on any particular object, or having an absent-minded look. When playing before a group, it is best to look at the company that has gathered, and not appear preoccupied. This advice is relevant only to those who are not playing from written scores.

With regard to those who make faces while playing: one can correct this by putting a mirror on top of the spinet or harpsichord."

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[Richard Barrett]

Words like banal and kitsch seem to be very often tagged on to music that is very popular.

A great deal of music is banal. Not all of it is popular.

[Richard Tarleton]

Tell me, what on earth is wrong with sentimental, romantic, beautifull? Why is it called kitsch?

I'm not sure that is what kitsch means anyway, is it? Kitsch more a question of taste, and sentimental etc. are not necessarily in bad taste. What are good and bad taste? Alfred Brendel collects items of kitsch and has spoken and written on the subject e.g. "I was always interested in the phenomenon of bad taste versus good taste. As I hope to represent good taste, I wish to find where the borderline is. Today there is a complete blur of perceptions."

[vinteuil]

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... if I understand the usual meaning of 'sentimental' to be 'undeserved, unmerited, and disproportionate emotion' - then I think there is a lot wrong with it.

'Kitsch', as wilful vulgarity and bad taste can be amusing. For a time. After a while it is just tiresome.

Nothing wrong with 'emotion' and 'feeling'.

Sadly we still haven't emerged from the stranglehold that the 'romantics' brought about at the beginning of the nineteenth century; we don't seem to have been able to find a fruitful new way of apprehending the world. We may be living in a 'post-romantic' world - but it is still one that has bought in to the value systems of the romantic movement. Which I do not share.


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[Richard Barrett]

the value systems of the romantic movement

But what would you say those are? Sentimentality is also a common characteristic in Enightenment culture (an obvious example being Sterne of course). Equally, Romantic writers like Heine or Hauff have an edge to their work which is anything but sentimental. To me the faultline lies in the concept of "self-expression".

[vinteuil]

But what would you say those are? Sentimentality is also a common characteristic in Enightenment culture (an obvious example being Sterne of course). Equally, Romantic writers like Heine or Hauff have an edge to their work which is anything but sentimental. To me the faultline lies in the concept of "self-expression".

... thank you, Richard : that is a useful corrective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentimental_novel

I suppose I relish the augustan / satirical aspects of Sterne, while holding my nose / looking the other way when he over-indulges in the 'sensibility' which in his case certainly tumbles over in to 'sentimentalism'.

I cannot be doing with the 'sentimentalism' of a Greuze or the kitsch of a Murillo - but of course I relish the Empfindsamkeit of CPE Bach.

Back to the drawing board....


And as for "self expression" being a fault line - didn't Burckhardt in The Civilization of the Renaissance see 'self expression' as the key insight of the new world that was the Renaissance?


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[gradus]

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... I prefer the advice given by Couperin in his 1716 Art of Playing the Harpsichord -

"It is better, and more decorous, not to mark time with the head, the body, or the feet. It is necessary to have a relaxed manner at the keyboard, not fixing one’s gaze on any particular object, or having an absent-minded look. When playing before a group, it is best to look at the company that has gathered, and not appear preoccupied. This advice is relevant only to those who are not playing from written scores.

With regard to those who make faces while playing: one can correct this by putting a mirror on top of the spinet or harpsichord."

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Couperin's advice is ignored as often as followed by keyboard players and has nothing whatever to do with listening and not playing. I think he'd be in the Mosh Pit with the rest.

[Judith Robbyns]

NatBalance has chosen the words 'sentimental' and 'kitsch'. This is rather puzzling, since both have generally pejorative meanings. 'Sentimental' regarding any branch of art referred (especially) to literary works where the display of sentiment or emotion was the predominant characteristic, but in common parlance nowadays it has come to mean 'oversentimental', mawkish, dealing in superficial emotion. 'Kitsch' never had anything but the pejorative meaning of 'worthless' - in the literal sense of not being of intrinsic value. That seems to have travelled in the reverse direction: the very 'worthlessness' is now considered (by collectors) to possess a certain innocuous charm.

[Serial_Apologist]

NatBalance has chosen the words 'sentimental' and 'kitsch'. This is rather puzzling, since both have generally pejorative meanings. 'Sentimental' regarding any branch of art referred (especially) to literary works where the display of sentiment or emotion was the predominant characteristic, but in common parlance nowadays it has come to mean 'oversentimental', mawkish, dealing in superficial emotion. 'Kitsch' never had anything but the pejorative meaning of 'worthless' - in the literal sense of not being of intrinsic value. That seems to have travelled in the reverse direction: the very 'worthlessness' is now considered (by collectors) to possess a certain innocuous charm.

That's "Postmodernism" for you!

[NatBalance]

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"It is better, and more decorous, not to mark time with the head, the body, or the feet …..With regard to those who make faces while playing: one can correct this by putting a mirror on top of the spinet or harpsichord."

Oh yes indubitably. One must not get too excited, politeness and restraint. DIGNITY at all times! Quite agree, quite agree :-)

I do agree that sometimes the movement of a performer can be distracting, or usually funny, but well hey …. so be it …. rather that than a robot.

A great deal of music is banal. Not all of it is popular.

True

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... if I understand the usual meaning of 'sentimental' to be 'undeserved, unmerited, and disproportionate emotion' ….

I think you'll find that's over sentimental. My understanding of the meaning of sentimental is …. "of or prompted by feelings of tenderness, sadness, or nostalgia".

In reply to my statement "Tell me, what on earth is wrong with sentimental, romantic, beautifull? Why is it called kitsch?"

I'm not sure that is what kitsch means anyway, is it? Kitsch more a question of taste, and sentimental etc. are not necessarily in bad taste.

Exactly, my point entirely, that is not what kitsch means but I often hear the words 'sentimental' and 'romantic' being used as a reason for something being kitsch.

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'Kitsch', as wilful vulgarity and bad taste can be amusing. For a time. After a while it is just tiresome.

I agree, but what is bad taste and vulgarity? I think to call the Warsaw Concerto vulgar and bad taste is in itself vulgar and bad taste.

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Sadly we still haven't emerged from the stranglehold that the 'romantics' brought about at the beginning of the nineteenth century; we don't seem to have been able to find a fruitful new way of apprehending the world. We may be living in a 'post-romantic' world - but it is still one that has bought in to the value systems of the romantic movement. Which I do not share.

Why is it sad? Does this mean you believe the Beatles were wrong, love is not all you need, and love does not make the world go round?

I think it depends what you mean by love and hence romantic. I think the words could perhaps be replaced by the word 'happiness'. In order to be happy you must love something, not necessarily another human being, it can be just the love of life itself. So I amend the words of the Beatles … happiness is all you need …. and …. happiness makes the world go round. Under that line of argument the Romantic Period could be called the Happiness Period. That doesn't work does it? It implies that during the other periods people were unhappy.

On the other hand I think you can be unhappy because you are in love. Oh cripes, this needs a bigger brain than mine.

Judith - sorry, I can't get my head around your point that my choice of those words is puzzling. I agree the word 'sentimental' does sometimes get used to mean over sentimental. Kitsch items might now be collectors items but for current items it is still a perjorative term, as used by Mr Fry to describe decorative plates, and as used by some people to describe pieces of music like the Warsaw Concerto.

[Richard Barrett]

the Romantic Period could be called the Happiness Period

Here is a (translated) passage from a quintessentially Romantic poem, "Heimkehr" by Heinrich Heine.

By the old grey tower
a sentry-box stands;
a lad dressed in red
is pacing there, back and forth.

He is toying with his musket
that gleams in the sunset's rays,
presenting and then shouldering it;
I wish he would shoot me dead.