Is there a reason ?

[Dave2002]

I would have thought (hoped?) that membership of the EU already covered all these concerns?

I think in addition it means:

the ability to formulate laws, including new ones, to amend laws, to remove old unwanted laws;

the ability to formulate procedures which might affect law making - for example elections, local government etc.

the abliity to interpret procedures and laws within the area of jurisdiction

the abliity to apply interpretations in accordance with the procedures and laws (e.g civil and criminal law)

the ability to administer appropriate functions in acordance with the regulations and laws applicable (for example tax, social benefits, essential services)

.... and all these in accordance with the customs, administration and authority within the area of jurisdiction.

It does not automatically follow that the UK is not subject to external influence, either from the EU or elsewhere.

If there are treaties with other countries/jurisdictions it is (should be) up to the sovereign authority to determine how these should be fulfilled.

It's not a perfect world, but hoping that things may happen is not always a good idea.

[Bella Kemp]

If the horror of Brexit were to happen, we will probably see the splitting of our two main parties: Labour into Momentum Labour and Real Labour and the Tories into Brexiteers and One Nation Tories. Few will truly lament the passing of these old dinosaurs. This will of necessity bring about change, constitutional or otherwise.
But that's the only glimmer of hope I can find. Michael Morpurgo, writing in The Sunday Times today, reminds us that we are destroying the 'blessed peace' that being in Europe has given us for the past forty years. How quickly we have forgotten that being at War with one European country or another was pretty much the order of the day or the tomorrow for the past thousand years.

[MrGongGong]

From "stalkerbook"

A brilliant analogy on radio 4 today - can't remember who said it tho' "muttering "let's get it over with" is like being pregnant and saying "let's just get the birth done and I can go back to a quiet life of getting lots of sleep and reading books".

[teamsaint]

If the horror of Brexit were to happen, we will probably see the splitting of our two main parties: Labour into Momentum Labour and Real Labour and the Tories into Brexiteers and One Nation Tories. Few will truly lament the passing of these old dinosaurs. This will of necessity bring about change, constitutional or otherwise.
But that's the only glimmer of hope I can find. Michael Morpurgo, writing in The Sunday Times today, reminds us that we are destroying the 'blessed peace' that being in Europe has given us for the past forty years. How quickly we have forgotten that being at War with one European country or another was pretty much the order of the day or the tomorrow for the past thousand years.

The elephant in that room is that we ( Britain AND other european nations) export our wars these days.

[teamsaint]

From "stalkerbook"

Well said.

Though long lie ins are over rated IMO.

[MrGongGong]

The elephant in that room is that we ( Britain AND other european nations) export our wars these days.

Which could be a good argument for an European Army?
Given that Bush and Co (Yes, you Tony B) p*ssed all over the UN as a force for stability and balance

[Pulcinella]

I find the often hysterical opposition to the idea of a European army puzzling.
If we are to have armed forces that we want to use for humanitarian and ethical actions then surely having an army that isn't seen as the enforcer of a single country and it's desire to control things, expand, have access to oil etc would be a GOOD thing?

What do those who are so opposed to the idea of an EU army want the UK army to do that an EU force wouldn't countenance?

It's a bit like the violent opposition to allowing prisoners to vote. If you really want to have those who have been outside society to integrate into society then having them participate in decision making would be a good idea.

[teamsaint]

Which could be a good argument for an European Army?
Given that Bush and Co (Yes, you Tony B) p*ssed all over the UN as a force for stability and balance

Possibly. I haven't thought that much about the army issue, TBH. I did look into the EU record on external interventions in some depth during the referendum, and it didn't inspire much confidence, ( tended to wards shoulder shrugging I would say) but then the British record is dreadful.

[Pulcinella]

I think in addition it means:

the ability to formulate laws, including new ones, to amend laws, to remove old unwanted laws;

the ability to formulate procedures which might affect law making - for example elections, local government etc.

the abliity to interpret procedures and laws within the area of jurisdiction

the abliity to apply interpretations in accordance with the procedures and laws (e.g civil and criminal law)

the ability to administer appropriate functions in acordance with the regulations and laws applicable (for example tax, social benefits, essential services)

.... and all these in accordance with the customs, administration and authority within the area of jurisdiction.

It does not automatically follow that the UK is not subject to external influence, either from the EU or elsewhere.

If there are treaties with other countries/jurisdictions it is (should be) up to the sovereign authority to determine how these should be fulfilled.

It's not a perfect world, but hoping that things may happen is not always a good idea.

I think a lot (if not all) of this is (soon to be was?) available to us as a member of the EU.

Visitors to Italy and those applying for a job there have to register and fulfil certain criteria (try becoming a secondary school teacher over there) that Mrs May (and others, presumably) chose not to adopt for the UK, for example.

[Dave2002]

The elephant in that room is that we ( Britain AND other european nations) export our wars these days.

I’m not sure about “the” elephant, but another is the pollution which we allow others to do - arguably on our behalf. China is a big polluter, but makes a lot of stuff which is sent and bought over here.

[MrGongGong]

Possibly. I haven't thought that much about the army issue, TBH. I did look into the EU record on external interventions in some depth during the referendum, and it didn't inspire much confidence, ( tended to wards shoulder shrugging I would say) but then the British record is dreadful.

Collaboration is genrally a good idea IMV
Having the likes of our current PM in charge of the scissors is rather foolish

[teamsaint]

I think a lot (if not all) of this is (soon to be was?) available to us as a member of the EU.

Visitors to Italy and those applying for a job there have to register and fulfil certain criteria (try becoming a secondary school teacher over there) that Mrs May (and others, presumably) chose not to adopt for the UK, for example.

We have certainly (well IMO anyway) been our own worst enemies with regards to using existing EU rules to suit our national needs, if such needs can be determined. The way Blair acted over A8 accession countries was reckless at best, and dangerously manipulative at worst.

[Dave2002]

I think a lot (if not all) of this is (soon to be was?) available to us as a member of the EU.

Visitors to Italy and those applying for a job there have to register and fulfil certain criteria (try becoming a secondary school teacher over there) that Mrs May (and others, presumably) chose not to adopt for the UK, for example.

Yes, but the procedures in different countries are different. French law is very different from UK law, in the way it’s created and administered. Even within the UK, Scottish law is different. I’m not saying that EU laws and regulations are bad - often they might be considered better than we have here, but they are very possibly different and too much control (power) may have been passed over to the EU, and the UK electorate maybe concerned about this. However, note that the electorate itself is not necessarily representative. Prisoners in the UK are not in the electorate, though some are citizens. I would have no objection to letting some, or maybe even all of them, vote.

[teamsaint]

I’m not sure about “the” elephant, but another is the pollution which we allow others to do - arguably on our behalf. China is a big polluter, but makes a lot of stuff which is sent and bought over here.

Yes, that seems to me to be a similar issue. I was talking about a specific elephant.

[MrGongGong]

Yes, but the procedures in different countries are different. French law is very different from UK law, in the way it’s created and administered. Even within the UK, Scottish law is different. I’m not saying that EU laws and regulations are bad - often they are better than we have here, but they are very possibly different and too much control (power) may have been passed over to the EU.

I hear this often
SO can you give me a real example where the UK has handed too much control to the EU (always bearing in mind that WE are part of the EU so it's not like giving your stuff to someone else) ?