Is there a reason ?

[Dave2002]

In the event that we ever do get a "confirmatory vote", I'd like to know how much control we'd actually take back, and also how much sovereignty really has been given away by being in the EU. For me it would make a difference which way I'd vote.

I don't think many of us really thought about the technicalities before 2016. I'm pretty sure most of the noisy yaboo people didn't.

For example, if the EU manages trade, and in the case of any trade disputes the EU justicial system had precedence I probably wouldn't mind too much. If, OTOH, the EU can interfere and have the final say in terms of other aspects - policing, army etc., then I would probably vote to leave. I'm fairly relaxed about workers' rights too - for the most part I think the EU is at least as trustworthy as I expect the UK government to be. Similaraly on environmental issues.

Regarding longer term trade, then there is a strong case to be made for dealing with India, China etc., but that doesn't preclude staying in the EU, as rather than the UK trying to go it alone to make deals with countries in those areas, the EU could do that, and possibly more effectively, and we would still get the benefit if we remained inside.

We'll have to see how it pans out.

[Richard Barrett]

how much sovereignty really has been given away by being in the EU

"Sovereignty" is something of an illusion, don't you think?

[Dave2002]

"Sovereignty" is something of an illusion, don't you think?

Not totally. Of course we all know that the USA Trumps all!

[Richard Barrett]

Not totally.

If you say it's "not totally" an illusion, that would imply that you think it largely is one. And yet it's a factor that would affect the way you vote. Why?

[Pulcinella]

If you say it's "not totally" an illusion, that would imply that you think it largely is one. And yet it's a factor that would affect the way you vote. Why?

Because whatever illusion one has of it, we were told that leaving the EU meant getting it back?
And many who voted believed it.

[oddoneout]

I'm fairly relaxed about workers' rights too

As have been successive governments and the unions for some workers. As casual staff I have benefited from standardisations of definitions and rights, and pay increases, thanks to EU consideration and regulations. They were all things that it suited various bodies not to investigate, for varying reasons, and some of the matters are still not being enforced in the UK.

[Dave2002]

If you say it's "not totally" an illusion, that would imply that you think it largely is one. And yet it's a factor that would affect the way you vote. Why?

No - that is not the implication. The degree of noniillusionariness (is that a word) only has to be in the range (approx) 1-99%. You may think that I meant that, but I didn't.

[Richard Barrett]

No - that is not the implication. The degree of noniillusionariness (is that a word) only has to be in the range (approx) 1-99%. You may think that I meant that, but I didn't.

So - what does sovereignty actually mean to you, and why do you attach importance to it?

[Serial_Apologist]

It really has been Alice in Wonderland stuff. So much so that the DUP are temporarily the good guys.
You really couldn’t make it up.
Hopefully the spotlight on our democratic processes will eventually yield positive results, eg a change in our dreadful electoral system.
But like Barnier, we seem to need quite a bit of patience......

( I happened to see a bit of the Lords debate last night. Wow. It was well past bed time for some of them.......but perhaps they too may yet become heroes)

Hm... If one is running a business, I can understand the impatience in regards to the inability to long-term plan. However, I really do wonder how many of those claiming to be fed up with waiting for Brexit to happen are actually being affected here and now by any delay.

[teamsaint]

Hm... If one is running a business, I can understand the impatience in regards to the inability to long-term plan. However, I really do wonder how many of those claiming to be fed up with waiting for Brexit to happen are actually being affected here and now by any delay.

Oh I completely agree. Brexit, unravelling 40 years of integration was always going to take a long time.

My point was that unfortunately we seem to need a lot of patience if waiting for long overdue (non Brexit ) constitutional change.

[Dave2002]

So - what does sovereignty actually mean to you, and why do you attach importance to it?

It means that most things which could conceivably affect me as long as I remain in the UK will be decided within the UK by UK institutions.

For most individuals this is helpful, but I would accept that often it makes no difference.

The most obvious examples to me of situations where sovereignty makes a difference are a couple of recent ones, involving possible extradition to the USA or vice versa. Hopefully most of us won't ever need to worry about such things, but sovereignty does make a difference.

If I travel outside the UK I may still have some protection under sovereignty rules - the right to return to the UK and to be protected within it, but that is obviously not guaranteed if I'm outside the jurisdiction of the UK.

[Pulcinella]

It means that most things which could conceivably affect me as long as I remain in the UK will be decided within the UK by UK institutions.

For most individuals this is helpful, but I would accept that often it makes no difference.

The most obvious examples to me of situations where sovereignty makes a difference are a couple of recent ones, involving possible extradiction to the USA or vice versa. Hopefully most of us won't ever need to worry about such things, but sovereignty does make a difference.

If I travel outside the UK I may still have some protection under sovereignty rules - the right to return to the UK and to be protected within it, but that is obviously not guaranteed if I'm outside the jurisdiction of the UK.

I would have thought (hoped?) that membership of the EU already covered all these concerns?

[Serial_Apologist]

So - what does sovereignty actually mean to you, and why do you attach importance to it?

Brexit supporting right wing politicians are making hay with rhetoric with the sovereignty issue while they can; they know in their heart of hearts, and have known at least since "expert" commentators for the Kinnock generation of right Labour reformists were telling the public that national governments no longer had any real control over domestic policies, because of the power of the dominating industrial giants to break an economy not operated according to their interests. This, incidentally, was the backing to Trotsky's formulation of "permanent revolution", which pointed out that any "developing" country achieving national self-determination would be forced to expropriate sectors of their economies under first world companies' ownership and nationalise if they were to survive, let along claim self-determination - so the myth of sovereignty in the age of monopoly capitalism has been debunkable at least since the 1930s, when America sneezed. That all appeared to change with the 2007 banking crash, when big capital was forced to go begging to the various national treasuries to prevent total financial collapse - the effects of which, given the tight interconnectedness of the world (capitalist) monetary system, would have threatened their continued existence as much as the monetary value of everything - creating the illusion that elected politicians did, in the end, actually still have power to determine the fate of nations. The need post WW2 for competitive trading arrangements led the US to support the establishment of the EEC, whose long-term objective of turning itself into the trading bloc capable of standing up to, in the first instance, the superiority of the US military-banking-industrial bloc, would prioritise political self-integration over national self-interest. It is this that the rhetoric of sovereignty had long pedalled as escapism into a mythologised past from the realities of modern-day capitalism - one in reality built on empires, slavery and wars they would either rather not mention or present as trips down nostalgia lane.

National sovereignty is the ideological back stop pending America and China's re-carving up the global market.

[Serial_Apologist]

Oh I completely agree. Brexit, unravelling 40 years of integration was always going to take a long time.

My point was that unfortunately we seem to need a lot of patience if waiting for long overdue (non Brexit ) constitutional change.

Ah - I agree.

[MrGongGong]

. If, OTOH, the EU can interfere and have the final say in terms of other aspects - policing, army etc., then I would probably vote to leave. .

I find the often hysterical opposition to the idea of a European army puzzling.
If we are to have armed forces that we want to use for humanitarian and ethical actions then surely having an army that isn't seen as the enforcer of a single country and it's desire to control things, expand, have access to oil etc would be a GOOD thing?

What do those who are so opposed to the idea of an EU army want the UK army to do that an EU force wouldn't countenance?

It's a bit like the violent opposition to allowing prisoners to vote. If you really want to have those who have been outside society to integrate into society then having them participate in decision making would be a good idea.