Is there a reason ?

[Dave2002]

"the EU has blocked UK partnerships "

OR (maybe more accurately) the UK has decided to opt out of future collaborations
why would anyone start a collaboration with a partner who is likely to renege on agreements and leave in the middle ?

This is entirely a result of the UK deciding that a policy of self-harm is a good idea

I stand by what I wrote earlier. The outcome may be a result of events in the UK, but the EU hasn't been willing to risk involving UK based workers in new projects - AFAIK. My view is that your suggestion "maybe more accurately" is not correct.

[kernelbogey]

I hope that this thread will survive, as the issues concerning musicians' livelihood interest me acutely. Thank you for raising this.

And...

[OP] Why we aren't allowed to talk about the things that will profoundly affect the cultural landscape of the UK ?

You are.

And...

I suppose the thought police have been out again.

I hope this was posted whimsically.

Hosts are volunteers who endeavour to keep members within the rules of the Forum. As simple as that. Think of us as more sheep-dogs than Orwellian constables.

[MrGongGong]

I stand by what I wrote earlier. The outcome may be a result of events in the UK, but the EU hasn't been willing to risk involving UK based workers in new projects - AFAIK. My view is that your suggestion "maybe more accurately" is not correct.

The problem with your interpretation is that it implies that somehow the 27 other countries in the EU are making it hard for the UK
they aren't
It's entirely the UK's doing
the EU partners I work with have expressed great sadness and exasperation at the situation

The sense of entitlement that many in the UK display is breathtaking
NO, we aren't that "special"
and
NO, you can't decide to "leave" and keep the bits you want

[oddoneout]

I have seen reports from the local and regional science based activities that individuals and groups that have applied for or might have been expecting to join EU funded joint working projects have not been successful because if they become non-EU at some point during the project then the funding is not legitimate. This is frustrating( a euphemism) for both the UK based people involved but also for EU partners who want the expertise of those people, and is certainly not about the EU choosing to block or make things difficult. It also has an impact on the ability to initiate/continue research in this country, by limiting both funding and access to specialist personnel.
It isn't an area I know about but I imagine the same problems are likely to have occurred with arts projects.

[cloughie]

I have seen reports from the local and regional science based activities that individuals and groups that have applied for or might have been expecting to join EU funded joint working projects have not been successful because if they become non-EU at some point during the project then the funding is not legitimate. This is frustrating( a euphemism) for both the UK based people involved but also for EU partners who want the expertise of those people, and is certainly not about the EU choosing to block or make things difficult. It also has an impact on the ability to initiate/continue research in this country, by limiting both funding and access to specialist personnel.
It isn't an area I know about but I imagine the same problems are likely to have occurred with arts projects.

...and who is blocking the funding the EU or the UK’s EU funding gatekeepers?

[Dave2002]

The problem with your interpretation is that it implies that somehow the 27 other countries in the EU are making it hard for the UK
they aren't
It's entirely the UK's doing
the EU partners I work with have expressed great sadness and exasperation at the situation

The sense of entitlement that many in the UK display is breathtaking
NO, we aren't that "special"
and
NO, you can't decide to "leave" and keep the bits you want

I think you're approaching it from a different angle. I agree with your sentiments, but regarding the projects I am 99% certain I'm right. I know people who would have been eligible to join projects, or continue with ongoing projects, who were not asked to join again. At first this might have seemed to be because of other factors - such as age, but on further checking it was established that that wasn't the reason, but simply that the other group members didn't want the complcations which they saw as having a detrimental effect further down the line.

Also, regarding "keeping the bits you want" it's quite possible that the EU based - non UK members - were appreciative of the contributions made by UK participants, but they felt that they couldn't do it. I don't know if they were told they couldn't/shouldn't by anyone from higher up in the EU, but that's what has happened. Possibly everyone has lost out - as some UK participants may have had a lot to offer/contribute - other than funding.

[DracoM]

The problem with your interpretation is that it implies that somehow the 27 other countries in the EU are making it hard for the UK
they aren't
It's entirely the UK's doing
the EU partners I work with have expressed great sadness and exasperation at the situation

The sense of entitlement that many in the UK display is breathtaking
NO, we aren't that "special"
and
NO, you can't decide to "leave" and keep the bits you want

Smack on. And 5 yrs down the line, our children will almost certainly have come to know the implications.

[MrGongGong]

I think you're approaching it from a different angle. I agree with your sentiments, but regarding the projects I am 99% certain I'm right. I know people who would have been eligible to join projects, or continue with ongoing projects, who were not asked to join again. At first this might have seemed to be because of other factors - such as age, but on further checking it was established that that wasn't the reason, but simply that the other group members didn't want the complcations which they saw as having a detrimental effect further down the line.

Also, regarding "keeping the bits you want" it's quite possible that the EU based - non UK members - were appreciative of the contributions made by UK participants, but they felt that they couldn't do it. I don't know if they were told they couldn't/shouldn't by anyone from higher up in the EU, but that's what has happened. Possibly everyone has lost out - as some UK participants may have had a lot to offer/contribute - other than funding.

"different angle" ?

TO take part in EU projects you have to either

1: Be in the EU
2: Be willing and able to financially contribute

Since the UK government has repeatedly stated that it's not going to do either of these then we are out.
YES, the UK has been (and still is at the moment) a major partner in many projects
BUT the fault lies entirely with the UK for signalling that it no longer wants to be part of these things.

Would you start a major collaboration with a partner who has singalled that they might walk off on a random whim half way through something ?

Meantime

https://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/Home/News/2019/Oct/New-Brexit-Deal-Does-Nothing-for-Musicians-says-MU?fbclid=IwAR0pnVTwVfYLI03WZoFBFttkgifKtdcamem6YVp625wGsCIwrgQeuByvp8c

[Dave2002]

Your point 2 is interesting. Does this explain why some participants come from countries such as Norway (which has some agreements with the EU), Russia, USA and even African countries which are outside the EU? I didn’t know there is/was an either/or set of rules, nor that the UK has declared it won’t pay, and hence not participate. Also I didn’t know that the UK is still a major partner in EU projects. I thought most projects with UK involvement had been wound down, and even if the projects are renewed, that the UK was not asked to rejoin.

[MrGongGong]

Your point 2 is interesting. Does this explain why some participants come from countries such as Norway (which has some agreements with the EU), Russia, USA and even African countries which are outside the EU? I didn’t know there is/was an either/or set of rules, nor that the UK has declared it won’t pay, and hence not participate. Also I didn’t know that the UK is still a major partner in EU projects. I thought most projects with UK involvement had been wound down, and even if the projects are renewed, that the UK was not asked to rejoin.

I don't know about Russia etc and I only know about cultural / education projects
but i've been invoved with several EU funded projects with Norway who have sometimes contributed the biggest part of the budget
The politcians in the UK have been very explicit about not giving money to the EU while at the same time being totally untrustworthy, it would be foolish in the extreme to base anything on a collaboration with a country like the UK at present.
There are (AFAIK) EU funded projects that are still running but we are getting towards the end.

Trying to do the "big boy did it and ran away" thing (which many UK folks seem to like to do) and make out that we are somehow being treated unfairly really doesn't wash.


There probably is a group 3. Projects which are in the form of aid targetted at countries and regions with "challenging" circumstances.

[Dave2002]

I don't know about Russia etc and I only know about cultural / education projects
but i've been invoved with several EU funded projects with Norway who have sometimes contributed the biggest part of the budget
The politcians in the UK have been very explicit about not giving money to the EU while at the same time being totally untrustworthy, it would be foolish in the extreme to base anything on a collaboration with a country like the UK at present.

I'm broadly in agreement with this. The projects that I knew about were in engineering standards and education, and also computers and communications.

One project did involve Americans and Russians and Norwegians, as well as Poles and perhaps some other Eastern Bloc countries. Another different kind of project did seem to have involvement with Africa, which surprised me. The UK now seems to be either completely at the bottom of the pile or indeed struck off altogether - which is a shame, but as you mention, who in their right mind would want to be involved with the UK right now. That, I'm afraid, also applies to some of us within the UK.

[MrGongGong]

Well that went well, didn't it

[jayne lee wilson]

Well that went well, didn't it

Oh, I was punching the air (again...)...

(I had Any Answers and the live Commons feed on simulcast....quite an exciting Saturday... & don't you just love that "unsigned letter" and its leading-on, leaning-on follow-up?)....

[teamsaint]

Oh, I was punching the air (again...)...

(I had Any Answers and the live Commons feed on simulcast....quite an exciting Saturday... & don't you just love that "unsigned letter" and its leading-on, leaning-on follow-up?)....

It really has been Alice in Wonderland stuff. So much so that the DUP are temporarily the good guys.
You really couldn’t make it up.
Hopefully the spotlight on our democratic processes will eventually yield positive results, eg a change in our dreadful electoral system.
But like Barnier, we seem to need quite a bit of patience......

( I happened to see a bit of the Lords debate last night. Wow. It was well past bed time for some of them.......but perhaps they too may yet become heroes)

[jayne lee wilson]

It is a looking-glass world ( and a looking-glass war....but between which, who and what?)