Electronic digital pianos

[Dave2002]

On a recent holiday I observed a few pianists playing digital pianos and keyboards. The techniques for keyboards are not always the same as for “real” pianos, though realistically why should they be? If someone wants to, and is able to play a “tune” with the harmonies filled in, and a backing track, why not? Why not also allow the melody to sound like a bit like a flute, a harp or a guitar? Also, why finger all the notes in every chord, if with some ingenuity very similar sounds can be generated with just a few keys?

I’m not advocating abandoning conventional pianos for electronic instruments, but suggesting that the latter may have a useful role, and some, perhaps many, keyboardists might find them useful tools. I am also not suggesting that learning to play using conventional keyboard techniques should be discounted, but how rigorous does this have to be?

A significant complaint of pianists about this type of instrument seems to be that the keyboard touch is not receptive enough, though some makers claim that their instruments get very close to more conventional ones in this respect.

The most prominent makers of this type of “piano” instrument seem to be Yamaha and Roland. Both have instruments similar to a grand in the range £3000-£6000, which is perhaps significantly cheaper than a good conventional instrument. On holiday I also noted a Korg keyboard, which I suspect was rather less like a piano than some of the other larger instruments. Maybe keyboardists now have to be flexible enough to play a range of different instruments.

The keyboardists I saw were professionals, playing for audiences, and using sheet music - where appropriate. Most of the audience would perhaps not have noticed all the “support” which these musicians had from their instruments, though the musicians were technically proficient and may have been able to play most of the pieces on more conventional non electronic instruments.

Real purists will probably not want to “go there”. Comments?

[Pulcinella]

I'm very happy with my Casio GP-500.
Developed in collaboration with Bechstein.
Here's a comparative review (comparing with similar Kawai CS8).

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/blog/kawai-cs8-casio-gp500-piano-comparison/

[John Locke]

Most of the audience would perhaps not have noticed all the “support” which these musicians had from their instruments, though the musicians were technically proficient and may have been able to play most of the pieces on more conventional non electronic instruments.

I don't know why a 'proficient' pianist would need 'support' from any ancillary gadgets, other than to get some sort of special effect not available on a piano which seems quite legitimate. It's perfectly possible to play an electronic piano as if it were an ordinary piano and many pianists use them when it's a matter of convenience.

[Bryn]

I don't know why a 'proficient' pianist would need 'support' from any ancillary gadgets, other than to get some sort of special effect not available on a piano which seems quite legitimate. It's perfectly possible to play an electronic piano as if it were an ordinary piano and many pianists use them when it's a matter of convenience.

Fine, but where do you put the preparations for certain works by john Cage et al?

[Richard Barrett]

Fine, but where do you put the preparations for certain works by john Cage et al?

Where do you put them in an acoustic piano? Do you need to use the exact model used by Cage? if you use a different one should you change the measurements accordingly? should you in any case adhere to Cage's exact measurements when he doesn't describe the actual objects in precise detail? Or you can download this https://www.bigfishaudio.com/John-Cage-Prepared-Piano and use your digital piano as a MIDI keyboard.

[Bryn]

Where do you put them in an acoustic piano? Do you need to use the exact model used by Cage? if you use a different one should you change the measurements accordingly? should you in any case adhere to Cage's exact measurements when he doesn't describe the actual objects in precise detail? Or you can download this https://www.bigfishaudio.com/John-Cage-Prepared-Piano and use your digital piano as a MIDI keyboard.

Interesting problems. Margaret Leng Tan had access to Cage's original set of preparations for the Sonatas and Interludes. She noted that the screws, for instance, were not only somewhat rusted but were made of alloys no longer in use. The rubbers were perished and again of different composition to what is available today. Ah the problems of HIPP. I'm with John Tilbury, who tunes the preparation by ear. There were other things for he and Cage to fall out over than a few mm here of there.

[John Locke]

Fine, but where do you put the preparations for certain works by john Cage et al?

You have a point. I really meant that electronic pianos can be, and often are, used as ordinary pianos without recourse to the built-in electronic gadgetry which, unless I misread, the first message suggested was being used. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted that point.

[cloughie]

Interesting problems. Margaret Leng Tan had access to Cage's original set of preparations for the Sonatas and Interludes. She noted that the screws, for instance, were not only somewhat rusted but were made of alloys no longer in use. The rubbers were perished and again of different composition to what is available today. Ah the problems of HIPP. I'm with John Tilbury, who tunes the preparation by ear. There were other things for he and Cage to fall out over than a few mm here of there.

Why did they bother, Fawlty, a synth can probably create anything a wrecked piano can do!

[peterthekeys]

I've got a Casio Privia PX-350M - I've had it for several years, and I'm still amazed by it. It's truly portable, and can be assembled in about 5 minutes into something which looks quite like a real piano (even has 3 pedals.) Both the feel and the sound are remarkably good (obviously not as good as a real acoustic piano, but massively more portable!) Last time I went to Dartington, I took it with me: at one point, I was down to play two-piano music with another attendee, and we found that the room only had one piano (albeit a Steinway grand.) I set up my Casio, and it held its own against the Steinway perfectly satisfactorily!

(My other piano is a Kawai KG-1C grand. Currently needs a lot of work and takes up half the front room, but I wouldn't part with it.)

[Old Grumpy]

I've got a Casio Privia PX-350M - I've had it for several years, and I'm still amazed by it. It's truly portable, and can be assembled in about 5 minutes into something which looks quite like a real piano (even has 3 pedals.) Both the feel and the sound are remarkably good (obviously not as good as a real acoustic piano, but massively more portable!) Last time I went to Dartington, I took it with me: at one point, I was down to play two-piano music with another attendee, and we found that the room only had one piano (albeit a Steinway grand.) I set up my Casio, and it held its own against the Steinway perfectly satisfactorily!

(My other piano is a Kawai KG-1C grand. Currently needs a lot of work and takes up half the front room, but I wouldn't part with it.)

Kinda reminds me of those bumper stickers you used to see in the last century - "My other car is a Porsche".

OG

[Dave2002]

You have a point. I really meant that electronic pianos can be, and often are, used as ordinary pianos without recourse to the built-in electronic gadgetry which, unless I misread, the first message suggested was being used. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted that point.

A lot depends on context. In the holiday environment the entertainment was mostly fairly light music - though not unpleasant. Nobody attempted to play the Hammerklavier sonata. The guys were pretty talented, and seemed to be able to play most things, and there were some stylistic touches. The instruments used would certainly seem to be appropriate for the kinds of pieces they were playing, and could also work for jazz I think, and certainly some classical pieces. I looked at the sheet music, and it was marked up with comments, and chord sequences etc., as well as the printed notes.

For the utmost subtelty and dynamism my guess is that a classically trained pianist on a very good piano would be preferable. However, not all musicians have those skills or instruments, and some may do very well in other genres which they enjoy.

Things that digital electronic pianos might be able to do which "real" ones can't include:

* almost immediate transposition - i.e. the player plays notes as written, but the actual notes sound lower or higher. Possibly useful for working with singers, or others. Even regular accompanists might find that helpful. One accompanist told me an amusing story about a singer who wanted the pitch altering - probably with almost zero warning. I'd have to ask him again about that, but I think he actually just played at the normal pitch and was amused at the results, but didn't tell her that's what he did. This is from someone who could normally transpose at sight even in concerts

* very fine tuning - the instrument can be retuned to play at any pitch (within reason)

* different tunings - the instrument could be used in different tuning formats - e.g. equal temperament, just temperament etc.

other features seem more or less obvious - as mentioned previously - the ability to mimic other instruments, so giving the impression of more than one playing

Depending on the instrument there may be other advantages. Some players use electronic pianos, such as the Rolands, because they are more portable, and can be taken to different venues. However, the better ones may not be very light - but still easier to man handle than a regular grand which would require a removal team. Jazz pianists often seem to use such instruments, and I have seen a classical pianist use one for a garden party.

For practice purposes electronic pianos may have an advantage, as the output could be diverted to headphones, or the volume reduced.

My current interest is perhaps because such instruments are coming up above the affordabiity horizon, and would be a step up from the two genuine pianos we have now - which are a challenge to maintain. Space and funds permitting we might even consider having a good new piano as well as a digital one - but would there really be any point if the digital ones are good enough?

[Dave2002]

Kinda reminds me of those bumper stickers you used to see in the last century - "My other car is a Porsche".

OG

I'm thinking Teslas for cars and Faziolis for pianos. Mmmmm.

[MrGongGong]

'Whit aboot Wombles, Mr McHoan?'

'What's that, Darren?'

'The Wombles, Mr McHoan. Of Wimbledon Common.' Darren Watt was holding the hand of his little brother, Dean, who was staring up at McHoan and looking like he was about to burst into tears. 'Are they real, Mr McHoan?'

'Of course they are,' he nodded. 'You've seen them on television, haven't you?'

'Aye.'

'Aye. Well then, of course they're real; real puppets.'

Iain Banks , The Crow Road

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Is there such a thing as a non-electronic digital piano?

[Bryn]

Is there such a thing as a non-electronic digital piano?

Certainly, there is. What else is the keyboard except, principally, a digital input music machine?