Unheard British symphonies

[Richard Barrett]

his Wine Symphony (No.4)

As I may have mentioned before, I was responsible for producing at least some of the performing materials for that piece. It was a soul-destroying task I have to say.

[ahinton]

As I may have mentioned before, I was responsible for producing at least some of the performing materials for that piece. It was a soul-destroying task I have to say.

In what way? Can you elaborate on that? I have vague recollections of it sounding rather better than some other things of his that I'd heard but have to admit that the subsequent passage of (rather a lot of) time has dimmed the memory of it pretty much to extinction. What possessed him to write 116 symphonies I have no more idea than I have of how he managed to commit so very much music (391 numbered works) to paper over less than six decades...

[Serial_Apologist]

In what way? Can you elaborate on that? I have vague recollections of it sounding rather better than some other things of his that I'd heard but have to admit that the subsequent passage of (rather a lot of) time has dimmed the memory of it pretty much to extinction. What possessed him to write 116 symphonies I have no more idea than I have of how he managed to commit so very much music (391 numbered works) to paper over less than six decades...

He must have had a lot to say......

[Richard Barrett]

He must have had a lot to say......

Not having a lot to say doesn't stop some people from saying a very great deal!

[Serial_Apologist]

Not having a lot to say doesn't stop some people from saying a very great deal!

[teamsaint]

Should be popular in oilfields, though.

This is a perennial topic on the Forum. There are some very good works amongst those mentioned so far (those by Alwyn were a real discovery for me - my thanks yet again to Edgey and Andrew Slater) and they do get occasional broadcasts (I can remember Alwyn, Arnold, Jones, Bax having had works broadcast on R3 over the past 5 years) and there is the annual Malcolm Arnold Festival.

It's just that most of them are simply not interesting enough for a sufficient number of conductors to want to learn them and then train orchestras to play them more regularly. There are far too many other works that they want to devote their energies to. (And that's just broadcast performances - add the large indifference of audiences to the mix, and you see why they aren't programmed in concerts more often.)

We'll have to make do with the Lyrita, Naxos, Dutton recordings and those "odd outings" on R3.

Well there is no doubt an element of truth in the highlighted comment. However, there is an obligation on those who have roles with influence ( and are usually have their jobs part funded by public funds) to take a lead. Nicholas Kenyon remarked in a Proms talk this year something along the lines of " we get lots of requests for more British works every year" with a barely stifled and dismissive

There is, I am quite sure, an unjustified bias against British Composers of the C20 among the programmers at top level arts organisations.

And I'm never sure about the "audience indifference" claims , either for unheard British composers, or more left field recent music. It seems to me to be part of a defensive narrative, in a risk averse environment. There are plenty of examples of poor turnouts for core rep concerts, and surprisingly big audiences for less often heard works .Ligeti and Takemitsu at the RAH springs to mind.

What is needed is leadership and imaginative programming.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

However, there is an obligation on those who have roles with influence ( and are usually have their jobs part funded by public funds) to take a lead.

But "take a lead" in what? Forcing conductors to learn repertoire with which they feel no sympathy? How would that affect the level of commitment to the job in hand - would a decent, professional run-through of a work do it any favours?

There may well be bias ("unjustified" or not) against C20th British composers - but it's not just "among the programmers at top level organisations" - how many solo pianists feel so committed to this repertoire that they offer it on theor programmes to the small Music Clubs/Concert Societies around the country?

Unless you get performers keen - that's the key word - keen to perform any repertoire, it simply won't get performed. There's quite a bit of good Music from these composers, but it doesn't excite enough performers to get the number of performances that its admirers will ever think it warrants. There's just too much better stuff from elsewhere (and elsewhen) that performers are more keen to promote - like Ligeti and Tekemitsu.

[ahinton]

Not having a lot to say doesn't stop some people from saying a very great deal!

True, of course (as perhaps implied in my wonderings as to why DB wrote as much as he did)...

[teamsaint]

But "take a lead" in what? Forcing conductors to learn repertoire with which they feel no sympathy? How would that affect the level of commitment to the job in hand - would a decent, professional run-through of a work do it any favours?

There may well be bias ("unjustified" or not) against C20th British composers - but it's not just "among the programmers at top level organisations" - how many solo pianists feel so committed to this repertoire that they offer it on theor programmes to the small Music Clubs/Concert Societies around the country?

Unless you get performers keen - that's the key word - keen to perform any repertoire, it simply won't get performed. There's quite a bit of good Music from these composers, but it doesn't excite enough performers to get the number of performances that its admirers will ever think it warrants. There's just too much better stuff from elsewhere (and elsewhen) that performers are more keen to promote - like Ligeti and Tekemitsu.

Take a lead in offering opportunities. In curating their programming. No doubt competition for concerts is keen, especially for visiting orchestras. And there are plenty of opportunities, away from the greatest heat of commercial pressures, for BBC orchestras, for example, to be even more imaginative in their programming.

There must be an element of chicken and egg. Conductors and orchestras have time pressure, and also the requirement to keep core rep performances excellent, but programme directors ought to have time to take an imaginative lead in their discussions with the performers. And it concerns me that for financial and career reasons they are often too risk averse.

And actually my suspicion is that many conductors would like to range wider, and would be keen to do so, and know of music they would like to cover, but are too often constrained by external pressures. as a contrast with imagination . It can be done, and there are people doing it well for example the Britten Sinfonia.

[LMcD]

Many thanks for all your replies and comments. While I can understand the possible barriers to concert or studio performances, the BBC doesn't seem particularly interested in playing the (sometimes very fine) recordings available of British symphonies.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Didn’t R3 once broadcast all of Havergal Brian ? Arnold had a COTW relatively recently as did Parry.Simpson used to be broadcast fairly frequently - having been an influential R3 producer but he now seems to have completely faded from the scene.

[LMcD]

Back in the day ….

The following concert (not recordings) was broadcast on 30th January 1975 as part of an ongoing series called 'Orpheus Britannicus':
MacCunn: The Land Of The Mountain And The Flood
Maxwell Geddes: Portrait Of A City
Ian Whyte: Tone Poem - Edinburgh
Martin Dalby: Symphony No. 1

CoTW is a welcome exception to the overall dearth of programmes - or even items within programmes - to feature British symphonies.

I believe the Havergal Brian season was broadcast in the late 1970s.

As somebody else has said, thank heavens for Naxos, Lyrita and certain other labels.

[cloughie]

Back in the day ….

The following concert (not recordings) was broadcast on 30th January 1975 as part of an ongoing series called 'Orpheus Britannicus':
MacCunn: The Land Of The Mountain And The Flood
Maxwell Geddes: Portrait Of A City
Ian Whyte: Tone Poem - Edinburgh
Martin Dalby: Symphony No. 1

CoTW is a welcome exception to the overall dearth of programmes - or even items within programmes - to feature British symphonies.

I believe the Havergal Brian season was broadcast in the late 1970s.

As somebody else has said, thank heavens for Naxos, Lyrita and certain other labels.

With the exception of the McCunn piece I wonder how many of the other pieces have been played on R3 since, and how many other McCunn pieces are ever played?

[Alison]

If you want a wine symphony preference would be for Havergal Brian’s Fifth. ‘Wine of Summer’.

I love following these works assisted by the Calum McDonald books.

[cloughie]

If you want a wine symphony preference would be for Havergal Brian’s Fifth. ‘Wine of Summer’.

I love following these works assisted by the Calum McDonald books.

If you want something stronger there's Mendelssohn 3 - well not a British composer but it was conceived here!