Jess Gillam's "This Classical Life"

[Dave2002]

... it worked for me : my father listened only to the Third Programme / Radio 3, and we were expected to shut up and listen when it was on.

I was not a rebellious child (at least not in this matter... ), and I absorbed and loved it. My two brothers did rebel, and always opted for pop / rock, and never got into classical music.

My mother's father was musically inclined, and having sired four children thought the obvious thing was for them to become a string quartet : my mother as oldest child was destined to be first violin. She and all her siblings rebelled ; it put them off classical music for life.

It seems to work both ways...

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I'm joining this thread very late in the day. I was given some encouragement as a child, and I suppose I must have exhibited some interest in music. Apparently when I was very young one of the 78s which were in our house was found in pieces on top of (or perhaps hidden under ... ) the player. The aged P's (who weren't that old at the time) figured that I must have tried to play it when they were not around. However although I was given limited encouragement, it didn't extend to going to concerts or indeed any kind of cultural activities. There was often music on the radio - third programme/later R3 - and I particularly used to listen to the concerts - often including the lunchtime concerts. Eventually after moving on to secondary school I expanded my own interest in music by going to chamber music concerts with a school friend, and once I knew I could go by myself I would go to orchestral concerts most weeks when there were any on, often by myself. I did occasionally take my mother to concerts - but it was I taking her, not the other way round.

Regarding putting people off - we exposed our daughter to music from an early age. She claims she doesn't like classical music, and I see no particular reason to doubt her - other than she has a very good ability to recognise the work of composers within just a few seconds. She also remembers the words of many of the songs - musicals and pop tunes - which she hears - something which I can't do. She can read music - but that's almost as far as it goes [though many people don't even acquire that skill], and I did notice that one of our scores of Bach preludes has been marked up - not in my writing - so I figure she did manage to play it once.

I don't know how parents should "manage" their children. Too much exposure to music seems as counter productive to future enjoyment as too little.

[oddoneout]

I'm joining this thread very late in the day. I was given some encouragement as a child, and I suppose I must have exhibited some interest in music. Apparently when I was very young one of the 78s which were in our house was found in pieces on top of (or perhaps hidden under ... ) the player. The aged P's (who weren't that old at the time) figured that I must have tried to play it when they were not around. However although I was given limited encouragement, it didn't extend to going to concerts or indeed any kind of cultural activities. There was often music on the radio - third programme/later R3 - and I particularly used to listen to the concerts - often including the lunchtime concerts. Eventually after moving on to secondary school I expanded my own interest in music by going to chamber music concerts with a school friend, and once I knew I could go by myself I would go to orchestral concerts most weeks when there were any on, often by myself. I did occasionally take my mother to concerts - but it was I taking her, not the other way round.

Regarding putting people off - we exposed our daughter to music from an early age. She claims she doesn't like classical music, and I see no particular reason to doubt her - other than she has a very good ability to recognise the work of composers within just a few seconds. She also remembers the words of many of the songs - musicals and pop tunes - which she hears - something which I can't do. She can read music - but that's almost as far as it goes [though many people don't even acquire that skill], and I did notice that one of our scores of Bach preludes has been marked up - not in my writing - so I figure she did manage to play it once.

I don't know how parents should "manage" their children. Too much exposure to music seems as counter productive to future enjoyment as too little.

All we can do as parents is provide the opportunity and, where appropriate the support, in this as many other areas such as food, sport, finance. I don't think that too much exposure to music is necessarily a problem so much as how that exposure is delivered/presented. I grew up with major music exposure but it was delivered with strong opinions both expressed and implicit, about what was good, acceptable etc. and access to radio and record player was not within my control. For a child already awkward and shy and not familiar with what occupied my peers' interests and activities it wasn't very helpful. My own children were exposed to what I listened to and had instrumental lessons and were given the means to listen to their own choices of music. Regardless of what they have or haven't done with that at least they know it is "out there".

[Dave2002]

I used to wonder about football managers - maybe I still do. I used to think "what do they do - they're not doing the work."

However at times I think that trying to influence others - parents "helping" their children - and other aspects of life - is very hard. Maybe it's easier with some people, though for many people it might be a struggle. Trying to get other people to perform well, and also enjoy what they do - that can be really hard. There are some fields where the struggle might just be too much - olympic swimming, ballet, even tennis for examples. There are numerous examples of people who have risen to the top, and who have admitted that they didn't enoy the journey, and they were "helped" to their elevated position by relatives who might "have meant well". I guess my view is that the best we can hope for is to give other people some of the tools which might help them to do better, and to enjoy what they do, but even that may not always be possible. A few years I made a comment about doing well at things and enjoying them to a friend, and his reply which surprised me slightly was "It's possible to do something very well, very competently, yet not enjoy it". If we assume that many people don't like things they're not very good at (which may be generally true) - then we need to realise that the converse statement is not "people enjoy things they're good at". No. Not necessarily.

Getting people into a position where they are not only competent and able enough in some fields but also enjoy the activity can be really hard, and parents are often not very good at achieving that balance for their offspring.

Football managers probably have more people to deal with, but at least they're not usually related to them.

[vinteuil]

A few years I made a comment about doing well at things and enjoying them to a friend, and his reply which surprised me slightly was "It's possible to do something very well, very competently, yet not enjoy it". If we assume that many people don't like things they're not very good at (which may be generally true) - then we need to realise that the converse statement is not "people enjoy things they're good at". No. Not necessarily.
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... "It's possible to do something very well, very competently, yet not enjoy it".

And there is also the not-infrequent and very sad phenomenon of people getting stale, bored, losing interest in things which they previously did very well and previously enjoyed enormously. There are musicians who experience this - and I remember a depressing programme about the chef Keith Floyd who in his later years was totally uninterested in food.

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[french frank]

and I remember a depressing programme about the chef Keith Floyd who in his later years was totally uninterested in food.

There, and I've become more interested in food - but to endorse your point, I'm now almost entirely uninterested in music because that stimulus of listening and expanding my knowledge that Radio 3 gave me 40 years ago is now so feeble.

I was looking up the first dictionary examples of 'youth culture' and 'peer pressure'. Both, if I remember, dated back to the 1950s.** I think it was inevitable that once there was a 'youth culture', the majority of 'youth' would gravitate towards it; and 'peer pressure' would ensure that many who might have been inclined to follow other interests not only going with the majority but also developing a hostility towards any kind of pressure to develop alternative interests.

** 1958 Listener 28 Aug. 308/2 We know little or nothing about the motivation of the new youth culture, whose emergence is one of the key phenomena of the 'fifties.

** 1957 R. Strang Adolescent Views Himself ii. 59 Peer pressure was all on the side of obedience to authority.

[DracoM]

Sorry, I just wish JG's time was up on R3.

[Jonathan]

It was an uncle of mine who, when I was around 7 or 8, introduced me to the Third Programme via his new-fangled VHF (i.e FM) radio. I never looked back.

Hi Bryn, I did actually play both my niece (who is now 15) and my nephew a "song" when they were both talking about the things they liked a few years ago (I think they were about 12 and 9 at that time). I chose something tuneful - Schubert's "Die Forelle" and a performance on u-tube (as they both use it a lot). My niece was completely unimpressed and my nephew kept asking "has it finished yet?" It's not surprising as my sister has zero interest in classical music despite having piano lessons with the same teacher as I did but she gave up as she didn't like our teacher. Oddly though, the piano I learnt on is now in her house and she does play a a bit now and my niece has started lessons in the last couple of years so maybe something might come from it eventually.

[oddoneout]

Sorry, I just wish JG's time was up on R3.

Careful what you wish for - in view of recent developments with TTN it would be unwise to assume that as and when her slot finishes there will be anything of merit to replace it and improve the Saturday offering.

[DracoM]

Night Tracks, Late Junction, Tickell's prog - I can readily do those
Who / what IS JG's theoretic audience?
Yes, she's a VERY fine player - yes, yes. but....................

[Frances_iom]

...
Who / what IS JG's theoretic audience?....................

box tickers - young, likes? pop music - ideal for R3's yoof audience

[french frank]

box tickers - young, likes? pop music - ideal for R3's yoof audience

I think it's an intended object lesson for old and young. It tells older people that the young classical professionals make no distinction between pop and classical. This is the modern way, like it or lump it. It's how things are now. It's how Radio 3 is. What that conceals is that most young people DO make a distinction between pop and classical - and they don't like classical.

Should there be any youngers listeners it shows them that it's okay to love classical music and pop music. Presenter and guest display their cred by enthusing about pop music. As I say, should there be any younger listeners …

[oddoneout]

I think it's an intended object lesson for old and young. It tells older people that the young classical professionals make no distinction between pop and classical. This is the modern way, like it or lump it. It's how things are now. It's how Radio 3 is. What that conceals is that most young people DO make a distinction between pop and classical - and they don't like classical.

Should there be any youngers listeners it shows them that it's okay to love classical music and pop music. Presenter and guest display their cred by enthusing about pop music. As I say, should there be any younger listeners …

I'm not convinced that young musicians practice musical apartheid in the way that seems to be assumed. It wasn't the case when I was a teenager(much to the puzzlement of some of the adults around) and student and I don't think that has changed, certainly odd bits of relevant TV and radio featuring such youngsters doesn't suggest that. I think they have the advantage of being interested in music and sound and willing to investigate. The structure of their life may differ from "ordinary" youngsters but that doesn't preclude interest in popular culture.
The flip side is hampered by prejudice and fear of the unknown in my view. The perception of "classical" music being hard and having nothing to offer, all snobbishness, stuffed shirts, tedium etc., doesn't encourage any sort of exploration of what is on offer and leads to the conviction that they don't like "classical" music. That is where having young people talking to young people has a value - but Jess Gillam on R3 is not the way to deliver that.
What I find sad is the idea, swallowed without question, that within the 800 years or so of western, so-called classical music there is nothing that might appeal. It's even sadder now I think because schools, as a result of government interference and incompetence, are no longer about education but just exam sausage factories and so are unable to provide that glimpse of an alternative world - and not just in music although that is the subject that arguably suffers most from lack of access to the tools of the trade.

[DracoM]

Endorse ALL that - yes, yes............
...................then.....
" but Jess Gillam on R3 is not the way to deliver that."
Yes to that too.

[french frank]

I'm not convinced that young musicians practice musical apartheid in the way that seems to be assumed. It wasn't the case when I was a teenager(much to the puzzlement of some of the adults around) and student and I don't think that has changed, certainly odd bits of relevant TV and radio featuring such youngsters doesn't suggest that. I think they have the advantage of being interested in music and sound and willing to investigate. The structure of their life may differ from "ordinary" youngsters but that doesn't preclude interest in popular culture.

That is exactly what I was saying. Young musicians, Jess and friends, don't make that distinction - as the programme illustrates. At least, young classical musicians don't. As for pop musicians (of whom there are many more): some will no doubt love it, some will hate it, and some will ignore it as a musical irrelevance.

The flip side is hampered by prejudice and fear of the unknown in my view. The perception of "classical" music being hard and having nothing to offer, all snobbishness, stuffed shirts, tedium etc., doesn't encourage any sort of exploration of what is on offer and leads to the conviction that they don't like "classical" music. That is where having young people talking to young people has a value - but Jess Gillam on R3 is not the way to deliver that.

Exactly (and who propagates the general perception of classical music in that way?). Anyway, it has been pointed out to the BBC many times that such programmes really don't have to be on R3 - they can be on the stations where the intended audience is to be found. But no. There are mass audience stations and specialist stations. If you put a specialist programme on a mass audience station you lose the audience. Doesn't matter if you lose audience on specialist stations because there isn't a big audience anyway. I'm pretty sure the 'light Proms' were moved off BBC Two and on to BBC Four because they didn't get a BBC Two-sized audience. Shunt them over to BBC Four and replace them with a popular programme like the Hairy Bikers.

Let's face it: there will be some existing Radio 3 listeners who enjoy This Classical Life, and if it also regularly pulls in six people who are under 45 - job done. Box ticked. Start briefing the PR department about the great success in attracting a younger audience.

[Stanfordian]

That is exactly what I was saying. Young musicians, Jess and friends, don't make that distinction - as the programme illustrates. At least, young classical musicians don't. As for pop musicians (of whom there are many more): some will no doubt love it, some will hate it, and some will ignore it as a musical irrelevance.



Exactly (and who propagates the general perception of classical music in that way?). Anyway, it has been pointed out to the BBC many times that such programmes really don't have to be on R3 - they can be on the stations where the intended audience is to be found. But no. There are mass audience stations and specialist stations. If you put a specialist programme on a mass audience station you lose the audience. Doesn't matter if you lose audience on specialist stations because there isn't a big audience anyway. I'm pretty sure the 'light Proms' were moved off BBC Two and on to BBC Four because they didn't get a BBC Two-sized audience. Shunt them over to BBC Four and replace them with a popular programme like the Hairy Bikers.

Let's face it: there will be some existing Radio 3 listeners who enjoy This Classical Life, and if it also regularly pulls in six people who are under 45 - job done. Box ticked. Start briefing the PR department about the great success in attracting a younger audience.

Some week ago on Radio 4 or World service I heard a conversation with young people about trying to get them to listen to BBC podcasts: These college and university students all said that they don't listen to radio any more, don't even own radios and now use Spotify etc.