Transposing

[cloughie]

I seriously do. It seriously does.

Interestingly (for those of us poor souls who find this sort of thing interesting - bit too chilly for nude gardening) whilst Arnie quite frequently uses instruments in the higher registers, the lowest note seems to be the A three ledger lines below the bass clef - and that only appears three times.

Probably Maynard Ferguson doesn’t write his very high stuff down. But seriously isn’t there 8 above notation they could use?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Probably Maynard Ferguson doesn’t write his very high stuff down. But seriously isn’t there 8 above notation they could use?

Not if there are other instruments playing notes "further down" in the chord - so, if there's an Ab (one ledger line above the staff), a D above that, an E above that, and a C above that (that is, the top note requires six ledger lines), then you'd have to put this one chord an octave lower with the 8ve higher symbol - and hope that score readers won't get confused with other voices on the other treble clef staves that aren't in the upper octave! In the context of the score as it is laid out, the ledger lines are the clearer option, but, as I said, I think Arnie created more problems than he solved with his "condensed" orchestral scores.

[MrGongGong]

Also, if the scores are written without transposition, does this not add another possible layer of confusion between conductors and players - or is the general competence of either the players or the conductors, or even both, such that in practice it doesn't happen?

There is very rarely any confusion about this
in the same way that if you got a builder to come and do things to your Victorian house they would be more than familiar with buying wood in metric lengths (but still might call it 2x4" etc ) for a building built to Imperial measurements.

In my experience, conductors who know their stuff deal with this effortlessly as do many others who are often able to play on the keyboard from a full score with transpositions etc

[Richard Barrett]

A quick glance around half-a-dozen orchestral scores (by Ligeti, Lutoslawski, Ferneyhough, and Barrett) they're all written "in C" (but none of them are in "C major" ), with the transposing instruments written as sounding.

One of those composers only did that in the first of his orchestral pieces, having switched over completely in the mid-1990s to writing everything at transposed pitch.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

One of those composers only did that in the first of his orchestral pieces, having switched over completely in the mid-1990s to writing everything at transposed pitch.

Lutoslawski?

[Dave2002]

In my experience, conductors who know their stuff deal with this effortlessly as do many others who are often able to play on the keyboard from a full score with transpositions etc

You probably know better conductors than I do builders then. They sound very impressive.

[Pabmusic]

...Another anomaly in some older scores (many avaiable in Dover Score reprints or from IMSLP) is the practice of writing 'cello parts in the treble clef an octave higher than sounding. The Dover edition of the complete Beethoven String Quartets has examples of these - as does the first printed score of Verdi's Requiem.

Indeed. Also horns written in bass clef (it happens) - the older convention was to transpose the notes up an octave so that they'd fall in the same sort of range as the bulk of the rest; the newer is to write them at pitch. I have myself used bass clef couple of times and wrote in newer style, but with a note "at pitch" as well.

But I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned brass bands...

Well, that's good, then...

The composer doesn't have a choice at all. Every instrument except one is written as a transposing instrument in B-flat or E-flat - and in treble clef! The exception is the bass trombone, which is written at pitch.

This all stems from the early days so that players could move effortlessly from one instrument to another without having to re-learn technique.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned brass bands...

Well, that's good, then...

The composer doesn't have a choice at all. Every instrument except one is written as a transposing instrument in B-flat or E-flat - and in treble clef! The exception is the bass trombone, which is written at pitch.

This all stems from the early days so that players could move effortlessly from one instrument to another without having to re-learn technique.

Saxophones too.

[BBMmk2]

Saxophones too.

They’re easy.

[MrGongGong]

Saxophones too.

Even though i'm a (somewhat lapsed) horn player
Eb sax brings me out in a cold sweat

I learn't the treble recorder as a transposing instrument

[Dave2002]

I learn't the treble recorder as a transposing instrument

I can’t remember, though I think I just learnt the different fingering. Obviously the fingering is pretty much the same as a descant, but shifted. Perhaps so few people go on to the treble that it’s hard to know which approach most people take, or what their mental processes are.

[BBMmk2]

Even though i'm a (somewhat lapsed) horn player
Eb sax brings me out in a cold sweat

I learn't the treble recorder as a transposing instrument

Really? Hmmm

[Dave2002]

I recall using a slightly thickish grey/brown plain coloured cover tutor book to learn treble - perhaps published by Schotts (or could it have been Dolmetsch?). Can’t find a trace of that book now - but it was over 50 years ago. I think it was pointed out that the fingering was the same as/similar to the descant, but the notes were different. I never considered that to be transposing.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I learn't the treble recorder as a transposing instrument

You mean you learnt the descant recorder, but played it on a treble.

The New Recorder Book 3 treats the treble (alto) recorder as a first instrument, so is more thorough than most.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Recorder-Tutor-Bk-Sopranino/dp/0769200753/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=The+new+recorder+book+goodyear&qid=1557052729&s=gateway&sr=8-2

It gets more complicated with alto recorders pitched in G.

[MrGongGong]

You mean you learnt the descant recorder, but played it on a treble.

Not really
Having learnt the descant recorder fingerings I realised it was like the king of all the instruments and pitched in F so I simply got good at transposition