Transposing

[Pabmusic]

I LOVED those scores - trying to dig one up of Brandenburg 3 ( I think) now - though thinking about it that simply scored work doesn't really need it .
Please can the experts answer one question ? In a modern c major scored piece of music ( e.g, Ades , Ligeti) is a Bflat clarinet playing a written note C as a sounded C or a sounded B flat ? I suspect from Ferney's answer above its the latter.

It doesn't matter what type of score, if a clarinet (trumpet or whatever) in B-flat plays a written C, then it sounds B-flat. If it's a C trumpet it sounds C; a D trumpet sounds D, a piccolo trumpet in B-flat sounds B-flat, but at the next octave, etc.

[Pabmusic]

SIBELIUS and other Music notation software does save a lot of potential heartache. When I handwrote scores, I always put the transposing instruments in transposition (it made copying parts so much easier, and was no more difficult than writing the Tenor Trombones in that funny clef). I once wrote a Cor Anglais part onto the first clarinet line of a score (which would mean that the resulting sound would have come out a fourth higher than the sound that was intended) - and I didn't notice until I came back to the piece the next day. I glared at the damn thing for half-an-hour until my forehead bled, willing myself to prefer what was written -- but, no: it had to be rubbed out and re-written on the correct line. With SIBELIUS, a copy&paste job that takes seconds - with pencil & paper, getting on for an hour's work.

Tell that to young composers today, and they don't believe you ...

Roy Douglas recalled struggling over an RVW score - a passage for a single instrument. He tried everything - had it been a cor anglais that had strayed to a different line? Etc., etc. Eventually he took it to RVW, who scratched his head and thought long and hard, and eventually said, "Can't make head nor tail of it - let's leave it out".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Please can the experts answer one question ? In a modern c major scored piece of music ( e.g, Ades , Ligeti) is a Bflat clarinet playing a written note C as a sounded C or a sounded B flat ? I suspect from Ferney's answer above its the latter.

A quick glance around half-a-dozen orchestral scores (by Ligeti, Lutoslawski, Ferneyhough, and Barrett) they're all written "in C" (but none of them are in "C major" ), with the transposing instruments written as sounding. Lutoslawski calls for specific transposing instrument (Clarinet in Eb, Trumpet in D etc etc) but what you see in the on-sale score is what you hear in (a careful) performance. I presume that the "hire-only" parts are written in the transposition called for - I never checked on the one occasion I had the chance.

[Ein Heldenleben]

A quick glance around half-a-dozen orchestral scores (by Ligeti, Lutoslawski, Ferneyhough, and Barrett) they're all written "in C" (but none of them are in "C major" ), with the transposing instruments written as sounding. Lutoslawski calls for specific transposing instrument (Clarinet in Eb, Trumpet in D etc etc) but what you see in the on-sale score is what you hear in (a careful) performance. I presume that the "hire-only" parts are written in the transposition called for - I never checked on the one occasion I had the chance.

Thanks v much . I meant scored without key signature or with c key signature - can't work out the precise term - there must be one. Did this fashion for scoring like this start ( in later music ) with Schoenberg? Also you are right about how hard it is to play on the piano from an orchestral score . I believe it used to be part of music degree training and that Horowitz was a supreme exponent . A friend of mine once came out of one such exam experience with the line " went ok , trumpets weren't doing much.."

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

SIBELIUS and other Music notation software does save a lot of potential heartache. When I handwrote scores, I always put the transposing instruments in transposition (it made copying parts so much easier, and was no more difficult than writing the Tenor Trombones in that funny clef). I once wrote a Cor Anglais part onto the first clarinet line of a score (which would mean that the resulting sound would have come out a fourth higher than the sound that was intended) - and I didn't notice until I came back to the piece the next day. I glared at the damn thing for half-an-hour until my forehead bled, willing myself to prefer what was written -- but, no: it had to be rubbed out and re-written on the correct line. With SIBELIUS, a copy&paste job that takes seconds - with pencil & paper, getting on for an hour's work.

Tell that to young composers today, and they don't believe you ...

In 1984, I volunteered to copy the orchestral parts for a 90 minute choral work with a huge orchestra. As the full score was written at concert pitch, so I became highly skilled in transposition. When time was running out, I found another willing volunteer. Unfortunately, his transpositions were a disaster, requiring gallons of Tippex and gummed manuscript paper.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thanks v much . I meant scored without key signature or with c key signature - can't work out the precise term - there must be one. Did this fashion for scoring like this start ( in later music ) with Schoenberg?

Schönberg went through a "patch" of providing study scores with everything written as sounding, and reducing the number of staves so that instruments only appear when they're needed - the 4 Songs Op 22 are only available on sale in this format: they're much more difficult to read and/or follow than the usual study score format!

For professional performance, Schönberg wrote for transposing instruments and wrote these into his scores (so that, for example, Rosen mentions performances of Pierrot Lunaire where the clarinetist hasn't noticed a change from Bb to A instruments, and produced notes sounding a whole-tone away from what was intended). The on-sale score of Pelleas et Melisande, reflects this, with Clarinets in A, Bb, and Eb, Horns in F, and E (that's E natural - try sorting that out when the Eb Clarinets are playing!) and the different "key signatures" at the start of the instrumental lines (many of which are then frequently "contradicted" in the Music they're required to play). By the time of the Orchestral Variations, Op 31, the scores are all printed "as sounding" ("in C") with just "clarinets" cited, rather than a specific transposing instrument.

Whether or not this is reflected in the parts, I don't know - it might be that he wasn't too particular whether a Bb or an A clarinet played the notes, as long as a clarinet timbre produced the required pitches. (Unlike Stravinsky, who, according to Isaac Stern, spotted when a clarinettist was playing a Clarinet in Bb when one in A was called for - the player had forgotten to bring the extra instrument, and was playing the correct-sounding notes, having transposed the part at sight, but Igor could tell the difference in timbre!)

Also you are right about how hard it is to play on the piano from an orchestral score . I believe it used to be part of music degree training and that Horowitz was a supreme exponent . A friend of mine once came out of one such exam experience with the line " went ok , trumpets weren't doing much.."

One of the advantages of being a really poor pianist, is that my score sight-reading produces "performances" of the same quality as the works I'd spent months learning. At my finals Exam, they allowed me to "sing" the parts my fingers weren't getting. (My "reading" wasn't the problem!) If you're familiar with the idiom of a piece (and with the sort of pieces they set for Exams. this isn't too difficult) it's not too difficult to work out how the transposing lines should "fit" the harmony.

[Joseph K]

Speaking of Schoenberg, in a footnote in his counterpoint text he shows the parallels between the various clefs and transposing instruments, e.g. alto clef = instrument in D.

[Pulcinella]

Schönberg went through a "patch" of providing study scores with everything written as sounding, and reducing the number of staves so that instruments only appear when they're needed - the 4 Songs Op 22 are only available on sale in this format: they're much more difficult to read and/or follow than the usual study score format!

Stravinsky's Requiem Canticles study score is the same.


There's a helpful note after the list of instruments, saying:
All instruments are written at actual pitch, except Flauto piccolo, which sounds one octave higher than written.

[Rolmill]

...Rosen mentions performances of Pierrot Lunaire where the clarinetist hasn't noticed a change from Bb to A instruments, and produced notes sounding a whole-tone away from what was intended...

At the risk of being banished to Pedants Corner, wouldn't the notes have sounded a semitone away from what was intended, not a whole-tone?

...Unlike Stravinsky, who, according to Isaac Stern, spotted when a clarinettist was playing a Clarinet in Bb when one in A was called for - the player had forgotten to bring the extra instrument, and was playing the correct-sounding notes, having transposed the part at sight, but Igor could tell the difference in timbre!...

Now that is impressive, especially given that clarinet sounds differ from model to model anyway! Come to think of it, don't professional players usually buy their B flat & A clarinets as a pair and house them in a double case - which would make it hard to remember one but not the other?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

At the risk of being banished to Pedants Corner, wouldn't the notes have sounded a semitone away from what was intended, not a whole-tone?

- 'tho' I prefer to think of it as being "elevated to Pedants' Corner" rather than "banished".

Now that is impressive, especially given that clarinet sounds differ from model to model anyway! Come to think of it, don't professional players usually buy their B flat & A clarinets as a pair and house them in a double case - which would make it hard to remember one but not the other?

Maybe so nowadays - but Birtwistle once recounted that, whilst doing National Service, he once forgot to take one of his Clarinets with him to a performance - so maybe it was as a result of this being a common error that manufacturers came up with the double case?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Stravinsky's Requiem Canticles study score is the same.

No it ain't - those B&H pocket scores of the late Stravinsky works take some getting used to, but they're clarity itself compared with the Schönberg Op 22 - where a single staff can (and does) accommodate different instruments in the same bar!

There's a helpful note after the list of instruments, saying:
All instruments are written at actual pitch, except Flauto piccolo, which sounds one octave higher than written.

Yes - a curious instance of the Double Basses being written at sounding pitch. (They play in only thirty bars of the entire piece, about ten of which they play harmonics in the treble clef.)

Another anomaly in some older scores (many avaiable in Dover Score reprints or from IMSLP) is the practice of writing 'cello parts in the treble clef an octave higher than sounding. The Dover edition of the complete Beethoven String Quartets has examples of these - as does the first printed score of Verdi's Requiem.

[Pulcinella]

No it ain't - those B&H pocket scores of the late Stravinsky works take some getting used to, but they're clarity itself compared with the Schönberg Op 22 - where a single staff can (and does) accommodate different instruments in the same bar!

Eek!
:eek:

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The introductory notes to the Schirmer edition of Schoenberg's Violin Concerto has this comment:

In this score there are no transposing instruments. Clarinets and Horns, possessing as they do a full chromatic scale, should be regarded as instruments in C. But the wind instrument players may use instruments of whatever pitch is technically most suitable. It goes without saying that all clefs should be read as though written for piano - that is, without transposition.

It's another of his "simplified" scores, with instruments used on whatever staff is available (and the DB and piccolo notes written with copious ledger lines as required). I don't know if this is simply copied in the Universal Edition of the score.

[Dave2002]

The introductory notes to the Schirmer edition of Schoenberg's Violin Concerto has this comment:



It's another of his "simplified" scores, with instruments used on whatever staff is available (and the DB and piccolo notes written with copious ledger lines as required). I don't know if this is simply copied in the Universal Edition of the score.

Does that seriously mean that instruments which are normally played/sound an octave above, or an octave below the written notes have a mass of confusing ledger lines above or below the respective staves? I'd freak out at that.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Does that seriously mean that instruments which are normally played/sound an octave above, or an octave below the written notes have a mass of confusing ledger lines above or below the respective staves? I'd freak out at that.

I seriously do. It seriously does.

Interestingly (for those of us poor souls who find this sort of thing interesting - bit too chilly for nude gardening) whilst Arnie quite frequently uses instruments in the higher registers, the lowest note seems to be the A three ledger lines below the bass clef - and that only appears three times.