Transposing

[Pabmusic]

Indeed, but some players have made recordings with the lower notes - for example Alan Hacker, IIRC.

Yes - I have one or two.

[Dave2002]

Very few school students who play movements from the Mozart Quintet and Concerto in exams have A clarinets. Publishers provide purchasers the choice of piano accompaniment keys.

http://www.boosey.com/shop/prod/Clar...b-Piano/601857

Presumably, following my earlier argument, the red line which is crossed is the actual pitch. In that case, do many students notice that they are actually playing in B flat - in the example given?

Is that something which is taught, so that they are least aware of it? Perhaps they discover that, or maybe never notice!

[MrGongGong]

Presumably, following my earlier argument, the red line which is crossed is the actual pitch. In that case, do many students notice that they are actually playing in B flat - in the example given?

Is that something which is taught, so that they are least aware of it? Perhaps they discover that, or maybe never notice!

I think it's worth remembering that
"Note" and "Pitch" (and even "Frequency") aren't the same thing

If I could have 10p for every time i've had teenagers tell me how "stupid" transposing instruments are and how it would all be much "better" if everything was "normal".

[Lion-of-Vienna]

Thanks for the replies to my question about clarinets. I can confirm that my copy of the Mozart Concerto with piano accompaniment has the piano part in B flat.

I was wondering whether there is something about the tone of a C-clarinet that Beethoven preferred over the B flat instrument. In the Fifth Symphony, for example, the first three movements (C Minor, A flat Major and C Minor) are scored for B-flat clarinet whereas in the finale, in C major, he switches to C-clarinet. I would have thought that by 1808 a clarinetist would be capable of playing a C major piece on a B flat instrument.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thanks for the replies to my question about clarinets. I can confirm that my copy of the Mozart Concerto with piano accompaniment has the piano part in B flat.

I was wondering whether there is something about the tone of a C-clarinet that Beethoven preferred over the B flat instrument. In the Fifth Symphony, for example, the first three movements (C Minor, A flat Major and C Minor) are scored for B-flat clarinet whereas in the finale, in C major, he switches to C-clarinet. I would have thought that by 1808 a clarinetist would be capable of playing a C major piece on a B flat instrument.

I've never knowingly heard a C clarinet from the early 19th Century - but I have heard a (more) modern version, which the player described as "a bit 'plastic-y'". Perhaps (and a big caveat around this conjecture) the C instrument was a bit more "piercing" - better in keeping with the piccolo in that Finale?

[Dave2002]

I think it's worth remembering that
"Note" and "Pitch" (and even "Frequency") aren't the same thing

If I could have 10p for every time i've had teenagers tell me how "stupid" transposing instruments are and how it would all be much "better" if everything was "normal".

I'm sure that in some way you are correct, but how would you refer to things?

These terms and ideas/concepts have developed over many years. Trying to be very precise may be difficult, or long winded.

[Dave2002]

Who designed Irving Berlin’s trick piano?

Not heard of this before.

An interesting twist to this thread - https://www.straightdope.com/columns...id-he-compose/ -

and would Irving Berlin be one of mrgg's teenagers today? [msg 33]

[cloughie]

Not heard of this before.

An interesting twist to this thread - https://www.straightdope.com/columns...id-he-compose/ -

and would Irving Berlin be one of mrgg's teenagers today? [msg 33]

Possibly, but for someone who lived to be 100 he had many post-teen years!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_piano

[MrGongGong]

I'm sure that in some way you are correct, but how would you refer to things?

These terms and ideas/concepts have developed over many years. Trying to be very precise may be difficult, or long winded.

I try to be careful about the language I use around these kinds of things
So, for example, a "note" refers to what you might call something like C on different instruments BUT will have different pitches depending on which instrument you play
The "note" C always does refer to multiple pitches anyway and so on

In the same way that I wouldn't refer to "Loud and Soft" but "Loud and Quiet" because "Soft" is indicative of timbre more than dynamic.

[Dave2002]

Possibly, but for someone who lived to be 100 he had many post-teen years!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_piano

In that article there is this comment ...

The harmonium sometimes features a mechanically shifted keyboard for transposition. A guitar capo has much the same effect.

Is it true that a guitar capo effectively transposes? I can understand that it shifts the "pitch" [mr gg will tell me if I'm using the right term here] but does it shift scales, or is it more like a mode shift?

[MrGongGong]

Is it true that a guitar capo effectively transposes? I can understand that it shifts the "pitch" [mr gg will tell me if I'm using the right term here] but does it shift scales, or is it more like a mode shift?

The capo is open to misuse (from the grear Johnny Marr )



Yes , it effectively shifts the pitch.
I've no idea what you mean by "shift scales" ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The Capo has the effect of making all the strings simultaneously higher by the same interval - it's like simultaneously turning all the pegs up by semitones.

(Love that photo of the idiot Johnson - in case people don't get it; he's playing behind the Capo, so making absolutely no difference to the resulting sounds.)

[cloughie]

The Capo has the effect of making all the strings simultaneously higher by the same interval - it's like simultaneously turning all the pegs up by semitones.

(Love that photo of the idiot Johnson - in case people don't get it; he's playing behind the Capo, so making absolutely no difference to the resulting sounds.)

Doesn’t look as though the strumming hand is playing much either but why let a tune get in the way of a publicity stunt. Bo(o)gie Man Boris!

[Dave2002]

The Capo has the effect of making all the strings simultaneously higher by the same interval - it's like simultaneously turning all the pegs up by semitones.

Interesting - there must be some clever mathematics behind the positioning of the frets I guess. So probably ratios rather than just a shift in frequencies. If moving the capo up to each fret position gives an exact semitone raise, then of course it's possible to transpose easily. Is it really that acccurate, across all the strings?

I have never had or played a guitar, so didn't know this. Interesting.

(Love that photo of the idiot Johnson - in case people don't get it; he's playing behind the Capo, so making absolutely no difference to the resulting sounds.)

Looks as though he hasn't ever owned or played one either!

[MrGongGong]

Interesting - there must be some clever mathematics behind the positioning of the frets I guess. So probably ratios rather than just a shift in frequencies. If moving the capo up to each fret position gives an exact semitone raise, then of course it's possible to transpose easily. Is it really that acccurate, across all the strings?

No

But it's all a compromise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRsSjh5TTqI&t=98s&frags=pl%2Cwn