Transposing

[MrGongGong]

Lots of Indian Harmoniums have a "transposer" which simply lifts the keyboard up and moves it over the sets of reeds that you need

[rauschwerk]

My vocal consort once tried over a Morley Canzonet (I Follow, Lo, the Footing - a title which makes it sound like the song of a building inspector!). Finding the printed voice ranges awkward, we decided to follow the editor's advice and try it a major third lower (something technical to do with the combination of clefs). We could not get more than a few bars into it. Even without absolute pitch, these highly experienced singers found a severe conflict between what their eyes were seeing and what their muscle memory was telling them to sing.

[Lion-of-Vienna]

Writing as someone who never got past playing the clarinet in the school orchestra many decades ago I would be grateful if any experienced clarinetists could answer these questions. What do you do when playing a piece like Beethoven's First Symphony where the composer writes for a C-clarinet? I presume that the majority of orchestral clarinet players do not posses a C-clarinet. Do you have to transpose at sight from a C-clarinet part or do publishers provide parts already transposed for the B-flat instrument? Also, did Beethoven write for a specific property of the C-instrument that is not possessed by the B-flat version or did he simply write for the C-instrument to save time?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Publishers nearly always have transposed versions of well known compositions,

[Dave2002]

Publishers nearly always have transposed versions of well known compositions,

This raises another question - I can’t remember the answer. Clarinets commonly come in two varieties - there are more - but A and B flat are usual. Students often learn on B flat instruments.

Is the music of common pieces for student use (e.g. Mozart’s clarinet quintet, concerto) generally transposed so that the pitch is correct, or so that the fingering is the same as on the instrument the work was written for? In the case of the Mozart works this is often taken to be the A clarinet, I believe.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

This raises another question - I can’t remember the answer. Clarinets commonly come in two varieties - there are more - but A and B flat are usual. Students often learn on B flat instruments.

Is the music of common pieces for student use (e.g. Mozart’s clarinet quintet, concerto) generally transposed so that the pitch is correct, or so that the fingering is the same as on the instrument the work was written for? In the case of the Mozart works this is often taken to be the A clarinet, I believe.

The clarinet part will be published in the original key, often with alternative transpositions of the accompaniment to suit the different pitches of the instruments. It’s worth checking before buying!

[pastoralguy]

Was Brahms hard up or just greedy?

I don't know. We never discussed it...

[cloughie]

Who designed Irving Berlin’s trick piano?

[Pabmusic]

This raises another question - I can’t remember the answer. Clarinets commonly come in two varieties - there are more - but A and B flat are usual. Students often learn on B flat instruments.

Is the music of common pieces for student use (e.g. Mozart’s clarinet quintet, concerto) generally transposed so that the pitch is correct, or so that the fingering is the same as on the instrument the work was written for? In the case of the Mozart works this is often taken to be the A clarinet, I believe.

If you buy the Mozart concerto (which is for A clarinet) you get a solo part written in C major. If you want to play that on a B-flat instrument, you can easily do so - but not with the accompaniment. To play with accompaniment you'd need to transpose the part into B major (ie: down a semitone) - awkward for a B-flat instrument. And you'd not be able to reach the written low Es in any case. That's why any serious student will have a matched pair of clarinets - B-flat and A.

[Pabmusic]

Writing as someone who never got past playing the clarinet in the school orchestra many decades ago I would be grateful if any experienced clarinetists could answer these questions. What do you do when playing a piece like Beethoven's First Symphony where the composer writes for a C-clarinet? I presume that the majority of orchestral clarinet players do not posses a C-clarinet. Do you have to transpose at sight from a C-clarinet part or do publishers provide parts already transposed for the B-flat instrument? Also, did Beethoven write for a specific property of the C-instrument that is not possessed by the B-flat version or did he simply write for the C-instrument to save time?

In Beethoven's day the clarinet was still quite primitive, and it had not settled into the most 'useful' forms (which became the B-flat and A clarinets). Clarinets in C were common enough, though. The Strauss family regularly use C and D clarinets as well as B-flat, A and E-flats.

A professional player may well have a C clarinet anyway, but if not they'd probably transpose the part on a B-flat clarinet - quite an easy transposition - play the music in D major rather than C. Some kind publisher nowadays might provide alternative transposed parts (but certainly no 19th century set does).

There can be problems, though. For instance, low E (the bottom note) on an A clarinet sounds C-sharp (2nd space up in bass clef), whereas on a B-flat clarinet it sounds D. So if you're brave enough to transpose an A part for the B-flat, you still won't be able to get the written low Es.

[Dave2002]

If you buy the Mozart concerto (which is for A clarinet) you get a solo part written in C major. If you want to play that on a B-flat instrument, you can easily do so - but not with the accompaniment. To play with accompaniment you'd need to transpose the part into B major (ie: down a semitone) - awkward for a B-flat instrument. And you'd not be able to reach the written low Es in any case. That's why any serious student will have a matched pair of clarinets - B-flat and A.

Indeed - but many young players start off on the B flat, and then if they're serious get an instrument in A later, and then maybe keep buying new instruments to "update" forever, or until they decide to give up.

Just coming back to your assertion about the accompaniment - is it not the case that some publishers supply an accompaniment for clarinets in B flat?

I don't know. Seems to me that something has to "give" - either the publisher, the soloist or the accompanist - and possibly also a constraint on playing at the "correct" pitch. Obviously if young students have accomplished pianists to play with, the pianists may be able to do the transposing, but younger pianists may also find that difficult, and would prefer a written out part.

Re the lowest notes, there's a nice Youtube video by Anthony Pay showing his instrument, which is extended to be able to play the lowest notes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3NCGSvKHCQ&feature=youtu.be

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Very few school students who play movements from the Mozart Quintet and Concerto in exams have A clarinets. Publishers provide purchasers the choice of piano accompaniment keys.

http://www.boosey.com/shop/prod/Clarinet-Concerto-Cl-in-Bb-Piano/601857

[Pabmusic]

...Just coming back to your assertion about the accompaniment - is it not the case that some publishers supply an accompaniment for clarinets in B flat?
I don't know. Seems to me that something has to "give" - either the publisher, the soloist or the accompanist - and possibly also a constraint on playing at the "correct" pitch. Obviously if young students have accomplished pianists to play with, the pianists may be able to do the transposing, but younger pianists may also find that difficult, and would prefer a written out part.

Re the lowest notes, there's a nice Youtube video by Anthony Pay showing his instrument, which is extended to be able to play the lowest notes.

I suppose someone might publish Mozart's concerto for B-flat, but I've never heard of it. Basically, if you want to play the whole thing you need an A clarinet. I'm expert, but Mrs. Pabs No. 1 was a fabulous player - and I can just imagine her rage at discovering there's a version of the Mozart with the accompaniment transposed into B major!

The Mozart is an oddity anyway since it wasn't written for a standard A clarinet, but rather for something that had a few notes lower than written E (Anthony Pay is no doubt talking about this). That particular model never caught on and the version most people know and love has passages transposed up an octave.

[Pabmusic]

Very few school students who play movements from the Mozart Quintet and Concerto in exams have A clarinets. Publishers provide purchasers the choice of piano accompaniment keys.

http://www.boosey.com/shop/prod/Clar...b-Piano/601857

Aha! Odd movements for exam purposes! I see...

[Dave2002]

That particular model never caught on and the version most people know and love has passages transposed up an octave.

Indeed, but some players have made recordings with the lower notes - for example Alan Hacker, IIRC.