Artificial Folk Song

[cloughie]

Why be puzzled about certainty? There are many sources of tunes and words, of course, but some are reasonably old - the Fitzwilliam Virginal book, and Playford being two, which contain tunes already considered 'traditional. As for words, we have to rely on collections such as Child's ballads. But an interesting phenomenon is that the words very often go back to an identifiable source that's not so old. Take The Murder of Maria Marten in the Red Barn. It's usually sung to the Dives and Lazarus tunes (which goes back to the 1600s at least) but the words are from broadsides no older than 1827 - because that's when the murder was. Other singers using that tune (and wanting a more 'Irish' feel) will sing The Star of the County Down - which words are from a published song of 1905.

RVW and Butterworth both collected versions of what RVW called The Sussex Carol (On Christmas Night All Christians Sing) - in three places around Horsham between 1904 and 1907. The tunes are similar, but different; so are the words - clearly a case of the singers remembering different bits a longer song. In fact, we know the source - a hymn written by an Irish bishop in 1648 and published that year - many verses, of which by the early 1900s most had been forgotten. The three singers (independently) had leant it with a new tune - probably something popular round Horsham in the 19th century.

As to the point about whether there have to be findable 'earlier versions' to prove antiquity, I think so. There have been enough people looking - at least since the early 1800s - so that, for there to be no 'earlier versions' suggests that it's a relatively recent tune.

So where does that place modern folk songs, are yhey all artificial?

[Pabmusic]

So where does that place modern folk songs, are yhey all artificial?

Of course. But what they actually are doing is (perhaps) continuing a tradition of fitting new words to tunes that's always happened. Probably the more correct view would be that 'modern' folk song is an artificial culture in itself. The Arts & Crafts Movement began with high ideals (perhaps) of preserving a way of life - but for the middle classes, not those from whom the culture came. Perhaps modern folk is something similar. (Where's A. L. Lloyd when you need him?)

A favourite quote is from Lloyd & RVW's Penguin Book of Folk Song, where Lloyd recalled an old Suffolk labourer talking about the influence of the music halls "I used to be reckoned a good singer till these 'tunes' came along".

[gurnemanz]

Of course. But what they actually are doing is (perhaps) continuing a tradition of fitting new words to tunes that's always happened. Probably the more correct view would be that 'modern' folk song is an artificial culture in itself. The Arts & Crafts Movement began with high ideals (perhaps) of preserving a way of life - but for the middle classes, not those from whom the culture came. Perhaps modern folk is something similar. (Where's A. L. Lloyd when you need him?)

A favourite quote is from Lloyd & RVW's Penguin Book of Folk Song, where Lloyd recalled an old Suffolk labourer talking about the influence of the music halls "I used to be reckoned a good singer till these 'tunes' came along".

Lloyd's "Folk Song in England" is one of the best books on music I have ever read. Still on my shelf (Paladin £1.50) - I should read it again after all these years. As a non-musicologist his pages on pentatonic and heptatonic scales and modes, gave me great insight into what was going on, eg Phrygian as in Spanish folk music where the scale's first interval is a semitone.

[cloughie]

Of course. But what they actually are doing is (perhaps) continuing a tradition of fitting new words to tunes that's always happened. Probably the more correct view would be that 'modern' folk song is an artificial culture in itself. The Arts & Crafts Movement began with high ideals (perhaps) of preserving a way of life - but for the middle classes, not those from whom the culture came. Perhaps modern folk is something similar. (Where's A. L. Lloyd when you need him?)

A favourite quote is from Lloyd & RVW's Penguin Book of Folk Song, where Lloyd recalled an old Suffolk labourer talking about the influence of the music halls "I used to be reckoned a good singer till these 'tunes' came along".

I think it all depends on what the definition of folk music is. There are many songs which are old songs which are sung regularly but whose origins are unknown. Also on the question of tunes - many, indeed most modern folk songs have new words and new tunes but very much follow the traditions of old folk songs which were written about ‘things which were happening’ to and around the writers. I argue that they are equally valid as folk songs.

[Pabmusic]

... I argue that they are equally valid as folk songs.

And I'd agree. I suppose that what I'm getting at is that we have 'culturally appropriated' something that once had an entirely different purpose - to bring something into the repetitive, mundane lives of labourers, etc. Nowadays Facebook and the like serves that purpose, and we have 'folk' music as generally middle-class colour.

[Pabmusic]

Lloyd's "Folk Song in England" is one of the best books on music I have ever read. Still on my shelf (Paladin £1.50) - I should read it again after all these years. As a non-musicologist his pages on pentatonic and heptatonic scales and modes, gave me great insight into what was going on, eg Phrygian as in Spanish folk music where the scale's first interval is a semitone.

[Padraig]

A favourite of the genre of mine, as I lived for many years in their shadow, is The Mountains of Mourne, words by Percy French to the traditional tune Carrigdoun. Here's a not bad rendition (with naff video) by Foster and Allen. See here for the tune's long and distinguished history.

while a friend from those days who now lives in British Columbia wrote a follow-up, being the reply of Mary, the girl addressed in the song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzmAWccv7IM

And as a guitarist my favourite study by Fernando Sor is of course his Opus 6 no 11 (Study no 17 in Segovia's collection) in which the last third, the major section, is an arrangement of the tune - I last performed it in public a couple of times in 2013 but here it is beautifully played by this young lad - the major section starts around 2.20.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=wjDoBG7sNag

A nice summary of the process from anon to whoever, Richard, including parody, assimilation in classical composition and rediscovery back to anon. I always believed it was Percy French's song until I heard a version of Carraig Donn and thought - hey! that's The Mountains of Mourne. Then I believed it was one of Moore's Melodies and when you linked to Sor's Study it could have proved a convincing possibility. Sean O'Riada's piece has a vague touch of rediscovery about it even though I think his piano arrangement is very proper and correct for a folk song. I like it a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CwBdAJQ67M

[cloughie]

A nice summary of the process from anon to whoever, Richard, including parody, assimilation in classical composition and rediscovery back to anon. I always believed it was Percy French's song until I heard a version of Carraig Donn and thought - hey! that's The Mountains of Mourne. Then I believed it was one of Moore's Melodies and when you linked to Sor's Study it could have proved a convincing possibility. Sean O'Riada's piece has a vague touch of rediscovery about it even though I think his piano arrangement is very proper and correct for a folk song. I like it a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CwBdAJQ67M

There is also a very good version by Don McLean.

[Richard Tarleton]

Thank you for the Ó Riada, Padraig, that's made my day. It was my wife (whose roots are in the Mournes) who first pointed out the likeness to the Sor study to me, while we were listening to a CD of the studies - it sorted my phrasing out at a stroke, and it was good to have Sor's inspiration confirmed by Wikipedia.

Cloughie - there is indeed . Some singers over-sentimentalise it, but he gets it about right.