Artificial Folk Song

[LezLee]

‘Driving yos’ (ewes) for example.

[teamsaint]

Occasional lapses I’d call that, at worst.

Most of it sounds pretty standard modern pronunciation to me. And of course some of the vocal styling is driven by the vocabulary.

Usage such as “ me “ for “ my” is also common even now.

[MrGongGong]

‘Driving yos’ (ewes) for example.

Well that seems pretty conclusive to my ears

[teamsaint]

Bellowhead’s records really don’t have much of this kind of thing at all.

It does happen. Eliza Carthy does it quite a bit, I think.

[DracoM]

Eliza Carthy, and the whole Waterson family sound like that in everyday life. It's not an assumed 'faux rustique' in them at all.
Won't hear a word against them!!

[teamsaint]

Eliza Carthy, and the whole Waterson family sound like that in everyday life. It's not an assumed 'faux rustique' in them at all.
Won't hear a word against them!!

Ah ha, so that must be how Boden pronounces “yews” in everyday life.

[DracoM]

Well, 'yows' is exactly how they pronounce 'ewes' up here.

[cloughie]

Occasional lapses I’d call that, at worst.

Most of it sounds pretty standard modern pronunciation to me. And of course some of the vocal styling is driven by the vocabulary.

Usage such as “ me “ for “ my” is also common even now.

Surely accents and dialects are all part of the mix of what folk singing is all about.

[Richard Tarleton]

A favourite of the genre of mine, as I lived for many years in their shadow, is The Mountains of Mourne, words by Percy French to the traditional tune Carrigdoun. Here's a not bad rendition (with naff video) by Foster and Allen. See here for the tune's long and distinguished history.

while a friend from those days who now lives in British Columbia wrote a follow-up, being the reply of Mary, the girl addressed in the song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzmAWccv7IM

And as a guitarist my favourite study by Fernando Sor is of course his Opus 6 no 11 (Study no 17 in Segovia's collection) in which the last third, the major section, is an arrangement of the tune - I last performed it in public a couple of times in 2013 but here it is beautifully played by this young lad - the major section starts around 2.20.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=wjDoBG7sNag

[Joseph K]

And as a guitarist my favourite study by Fernando Sor is of course his Opus 6 no 11 (Study no 17 in Segovia's collection) in which the last third, the major section, is an arrangement of the tune - I last performed it in public a couple of times in 2013 but here it is beautifully played by this young lad - the major section starts around 2.20.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=wjDoBG7sNag

I've been playing this study for years now, but it still gives me trouble.

[Richard Tarleton]

I've been playing this study for years now, but it still gives me trouble.

There's an awkward stretch on the first page....but it's all about the phrasing - it's in groups of six bars, mostly. If you sing the song to yourself, you'll get it. I just love it.

(sorry Joseph I pressed "Edit" instead of "Reply", an old host's trick, which makes it look as if I was editing your post )

[LezLee]

Surely accents and dialects are all part of the mix of what folk singing is all about.

Yes, but nobody knows what accents and dialects sounded like when the songs were written, so it’s all guesswork.

[silvestrione]

'Most folk tunes - from whatever source - are relatively recent. Some can be dated to the late 1500s (the one RVW called Dives and Lazarus, and which is also the 1905 Star of the County Down) but most are no older than the 18th century.

One that has a curious history is Danny Boy (Londonderry Air). It was first published in Petrie's collection of Ancient Music of Ireland, in 1853. It was submitted by Miss Jane Ross of Limavady, who said it was a fiddle tune - "very old". But it has stoutly resisted attempts to find older versions. The nearest is a ¾ quickish harp tune in a 1794 book, but it's not that near. It has been speculated that Jane Ross wrote it herself and submitted it as a folk tune.' (From the opening post)


I'm puzzled about the certainty here. Does there have to be findable 'earlier versions' to prove antiquity? Aren't they by definition tunes that may not have been written down before?

[cloughie]

Yes, but nobody knows what accents and dialects sounded like when the songs were written, so it’s all guesswork.

But that's the joy of folksong in that it adapts and evolves - originally never written down, as noted by Sivistrone in #28, people just sang what they heard - still happening today - listen to any of the informal singing groups in Cornwall and you'll not usually find two sounding the same - different phrasing, different harmonies - different notes and different words and verses, and adapting songs from other parts of the county, country, across the Atlantic and anywhere else!

[Pabmusic]

'Most folk tunes - from whatever source - are relatively recent. Some can be dated to the late 1500s (the one RVW called Dives and Lazarus, and which is also the 1905 Star of the County Down) but most are no older than the 18th century.

One that has a curious history is Danny Boy (Londonderry Air). It was first published in Petrie's collection of Ancient Music of Ireland, in 1853. It was submitted by Miss Jane Ross of Limavady, who said it was a fiddle tune - "very old". But it has stoutly resisted attempts to find older versions. The nearest is a ¾ quickish harp tune in a 1794 book, but it's not that near. It has been speculated that Jane Ross wrote it herself and submitted it as a folk tune.' (From the opening post)


I'm puzzled about the certainty here. Does there have to be findable 'earlier versions' to prove antiquity? Aren't they by definition tunes that may not have been written down before?

Why be puzzled about certainty? There are many sources of tunes and words, of course, but some are reasonably old - the Fitzwilliam Virginal book, and Playford being two, which contain tunes already considered 'traditional. As for words, we have to rely on collections such as Child's ballads. But an interesting phenomenon is that the words very often go back to an identifiable source that's not so old. Take The Murder of Maria Marten in the Red Barn. It's usually sung to the Dives and Lazarus tunes (which goes back to the 1600s at least) but the words are from broadsides no older than 1827 - because that's when the murder was. Other singers using that tune (and wanting a more 'Irish' feel) will sing The Star of the County Down - which words are from a published song of 1905.

RVW and Butterworth both collected versions of what RVW called The Sussex Carol (On Christmas Night All Christians Sing) - in three places around Horsham between 1904 and 1907. The tunes are similar, but different; so are the words - clearly a case of the singers remembering different bits a longer song. In fact, we know the source - a hymn written by an Irish bishop in 1648 and published that year - many verses, of which by the early 1900s most had been forgotten. The three singers (independently) had leant it with a new tune - probably something popular round Horsham in the 19th century.

As to the point about whether there have to be findable 'earlier versions' to prove antiquity, I think so. There have been enough people looking - at least since the early 1800s - so that, for there to be no 'earlier versions' suggests that it's a relatively recent tune.