"Universalism" and "Imperialism" - how does Music "spread"?

[Richard Barrett]

It seems the other way round; you seem to prefer not to admit that some Western cultures may actually be worth appreciating for its own sake.

If you read any of my posts here you'll see that most of them are concerned with appreciating some aspect of Western culture, so I really don't know where you get that idea from. I do think that it needs to be seen in a more global geographical/historical context, which for example acknowledges that its spreading far and wide across the world and the imperialism/colonialism of Western powers are connected with one another. If Japan had been a colonial power we might now be discussing whether there is something inherent to gagaku which appeals to people from many different cultures. Music is never separable from its social context, that's the fundamental message, but this doesn't need at all to lead to appreciating any of it any less, as you seem to be implying is my position here.

[doversoul1]

If you read any of my posts here you'll see that most of them are concerned with appreciating some aspect of Western culture, so I really don't know where you get that idea from. I do think that it needs to be seen in a more global geographical/historical context, which for example acknowledges that its spreading far and wide across the world and the imperialism/colonialism of Western powers are connected with one another. If Japan had been a colonial power we might now be discussing whether there is something inherent to gagaku which appeals to people from many different cultures. Music is never separable from its social context, that's the fundamental message, but this doesn't need at all to lead to appreciating any of it any less, as you seem to be implying is my position here.

Your immediate response to my original question (why has Western music spread as it has) was Imperialism and that seems to be what you are still saying here albeit in a broader sense.

Music is never separable from its social context

Does this explain why Western music has spread as it has when you leave out Imperialism and other social and political theories? My original question came about precisely because all those Imperialism, Colonialism, Post or otherwise and other theories of Western Power did not explain my own experience and observations where Western music was concerned.

If what you are saying is the Imperial Power physically/practically aided to make way for music to spread, surely any other music have had ample opportunities to spread around the world by new technologies in the last few decades? But I doubt if this is what you are saying.

[ed.] It may bore others to tears but could you possibly explain in more details what Imperialism: Music and Social Context mean in this particular question as if you were giving a lecture to the first year undergraduate? You may have done it in your own way but I’d be very grateful if you could put the points together., giving particular reference to why these powers has more to do with the nature of the music itself.

On second thought, please don’t bother to reply to this. It’s probably one of those things that could go on and on. But if you want to have the last words, please do. I promise I’ll stay quiet.

[Richard Tarleton]

For what it's worth - a tiny footnote to this fascinating discussion

As far as India (a major component of the empire, after all) is concerned, western music played little or no part in the experience of the Brits in India, let alone that of of their "subjects". At the height of empire there were never more than 155,000 British in India – in 1901 there were approx. 5 men to 2 women (fewer women earlier, more towards Independence). Most of the men were either civilian administrators or soldiers, in an intensely hierarchical society. It was a profoundly anti-intellectual society, in which as one English newcomer put it "we almost entirely lose sight of the aesthetic and fine arts side of existence". Civilians displaying an interest in literature or poetry were considered unsound. Some officials may have transported pianos to their remote stations but they didn't last long, between the damp and the termites, neither did books, but the anti-intellectualism of British society in India (discussed by David Gilmour in The British in India) went beyond these practical considerations.

There were exceptions - and there was a great interest back home in the visual arts, in fabrics and design, that sort of thing. But music doesn't seem to have featured.

[Richard Barrett]

On second thought, please don’t bother to reply to this. It’s probably one of those things that could go on and on. But if you want to have the last words, please do. I promise I’ll stay quiet.

I'm not addicted to having the last word, plus I have to say I would love to spend the necessary time to express myself properly on the subjects you're asking about, but at this moment I really can't. For my part I would be interested in hearing more about your own impressions and experiences, and I'm sure others would too.

[doversoul1]

For what it's worth - a tiny footnote to this fascinating discussion

As far as India (a major component of the empire, after all) is concerned, western music played little or no part in the experience of the Brits in India, let alone that of of their "subjects". At the height of empire there were never more than 155,000 British in India – in 1901 there were approx. 5 men to 2 women (fewer women earlier, more towards Independence). Most of the men were either civilian administrators or soldiers, in an intensely hierarchical society. It was a profoundly anti-intellectual society, in which as one English newcomer put it "we almost entirely lose sight of the aesthetic and fine arts side of existence". Civilians displaying an interest in literature or poetry were considered unsound. Some officials may have transported pianos to their remote stations but they didn't last long, between the damp and the termites, neither did books, but the anti-intellectualism of British society in India (discussed by David Gilmour in The British in India) went beyond these practical considerations.

There were exceptions - and there was a great interest back home in the visual arts, in fabrics and design, that sort of thing. But music doesn't seem to have featured.

Some years ago after Jeffrey Skidmore talked about Ex Cathedra’s new CD* of Latin American music on one Early Music Show, I posted saying something like ‘those Spaniards wiped out the music of the indigenous people’. I was severely reprimanded by (it could only have been ) you who told me to read a biography of a Spanish missionary (I didn’t read the book but read the wiki article). Why do you think, apart from exceptions like this missionary, in such seemingly unlike condition, Western music developed to such high standard in (the occupied?) Latin America?

*it might have been this

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7939756--moon-sun-all-things

[doversoul1]

I'm not addicted to having the last word, plus I have to say I would love to spend the necessary time to express myself properly on the subjects you're asking about, but at this moment I really can't. For my part I would be interested in hearing more about your own impressions and experiences, and I'm sure others would too.

Thank you, Richard. I’ll think about some examples that, hopefully, will not bore you and others.

[Richard Tarleton]

Some years ago after Jeffrey Skidmore talked about Ex Cathedra’s new CD* of Latin American music on one Early Music Show, I posted after the programme, saying something like ‘those Spaniards wiped out the music of the indigenous people’. I was severely reprimanded by (it could only have been ) you who told me to read a biography of a Spanish missionary (I didn’t read the book but read the wiki article). Why do you think, apart from exceptions like this missionary, in such seemingly unlike condition, Western music developed to such high standard in (the occupied?) Latin America?

*it might have been this
https://www.prestomusic.com/classica...sun-all-things

Was that really me, ds - I have no recollection of that. Belated apologies if it was - can you refresh my memory, without embarrassing me further? Was it Bartolomé de las Casas? But I think there was quite a bit of crossover, integration etc. between Catholic liturgical music and indigenous music, it may even have given those wily Jesuits an "in" in converting their flocks. I don't think anything like this happened in India. My remarks on India of course take no account of the activities of missionaries, but I'm not sure if making indigenous people sing hymns is what Mr GG was after.....

[Serial_Apologist]

Hi dovers - I'm very late in coming into this discussion, and feeling very trepidacious about tackling the complex issues raised between yourself and Richard. Anyway, here's my penny's worth...

Your immediate response to my original question (why has Western music spread as it has) was Imperialism and that seems to be what you are still saying here albeit in a broader sense.

Does this explain why Western music has spread as it has when you leave out Imperialism and other social and political theories? My original question came about precisely because all those Imperialism, Colonialism, Post or otherwise and other theories of Western Power did not explain my own experience and observations where Western music was concerned.

If what you are saying is the Imperial Power physically/practically aided to make way for music to spread, surely any other music have had ample opportunities to spread around the world by new technologies in the last few decades? But I doubt if this is what you are saying.

Wouldn't one say that some cultures are more amenable to external influences than others? Only someone from that culture could say whether or not this was true of their own culture, but I seem to recall the great Japanese composer Takemitsu describing how he (and presumably others of his generation whose music we are familiar with here) welcomed his exposure to Western music, from modern classical music to jazz, as a sort of cultural antidote to the narrow conformist national musical traditions as he saw them.

The way I understand how, long before the current means of technological dissemination came into being, Western music succeeded in spreading its influence worldwide, comes with the oft-cited juxtaposition of bullet and Bible. In instances of colonial conquest the means of transmssion would have been through the elders of particular societies, in whom authority was vested, with the added "legitimacy" of "yours (ships, guns) are bigger than ours (spears, bows and arrows)", and elders are subject to the lure of inducements, financial and culturally interconnected, of course, wherever they are, and thus would have commenced a chain action in which in, for example, colonised parts of Africa would "take on" aspects of Western music (instruments with their associated tunings, diatonic counterpoint, harmony and associated forms (songs)) along with their social and economic roles and performance contexts. This would, of course, not happen in such a way as to destroy the host culture but by subtly forced means presented as natural osmosis, analogous and contemporaneous with the Christian church's "accommodation" to and of pagan traditions deemed sufficiently "harmless", i.e. serviceable (sic), to be useful as a cultural passport. As time has gone on, the "favour" has of course been returned, in the form of so-called "world music", in which, (with certain notable exceptions, where an indigenous tradition, eg in the Indian subcontinent, has been eventually deemed culturally equivalent), what has been taken on, at least since when the time when Debussy was overwhelmed by the beauties and intricacies of Balinese Gamelan music, is a product already diluted by Western infractions to the point where the original has disappeared from historical memory. How useful the Western evolved tradition of writing music down - and of course more recently recording it - has been!

[ed.] It may bore others to tears but could you possibly explain in more details what Imperialism: Music and Social Context mean in this particular question as if you were giving a lecture to the first year undergraduate? You may have done it in your own way but I’d be very grateful if you could put the points together., giving particular reference to why these powers has more to do with the nature of the music itself.

The way I would put it would be to argue that the nature of the music itself is of less importance than the context in which the music (or foregin culture) is being introduced, along with power imbalances between the overarching political and economic relations between the imposing power (which by definition is imperialist) and the recipient, which rest on larger issues than values to be considered as inhering in the musical and other cultural products of either the imposer or the imposed-on culture.

As someone Western-born and imbued with certain ideas of what music (in the context of this thread discussion) is capable of expressing and communicating, I like to think that music advances to reflect the character of its era. But while this is a characteristic (and expression if you like) of Western advances in science, technology and sociopolitical inclusiveness, I do appreciate what has been lost along the way, and which it is usually subcultures that have tried to reintroduce, such as craft practices destroyed by automation and complex rhythms lost during the period of liturgical influence subsequently on Baroque and Classical musics, while my identification is with particular developments and musical examples within the culture into which I have been inculcated, my critical perspective hopefully allows me to optimise the opportunities this same culture (in my case Radio 3 when it really did seek to inform and enlighten) has unveiled for me.

[doversoul1]

Richard Tarleton

Was it Bartolomé de las Casas?

I’ve checked with wiki, and yes, it must have been him.
At the time (and now) I was very glad that I learned about this man.

Serial_Apologist

the context in which the music (or foreign culture) is being introduced, along with power imbalances between the overarching political and economic relations between the imposing power (which by definition is imperialist) and the recipient,

This is the sticking point in trying to explain or understand Western music at least in Japan. Japan was never in the position to have the culture from outside imposed upon it. From the first Jesuits shipwrecked in 1600, including the famous William Adams from Gillingham, to the last traders from the Dutch East India Company in the mid-19th century, the Shogun government allowed them to stay under its strict control. Jesuits were allowed to preach (the authorities were more amused than alarmed) and they built up quite a number of converts alongside prosperous trading activities. After 40 odd years, when the Shogun government saw that the Jesuits’ trading was becoming too large for their liking, it banished the Portuguese overnight. Soon after that, the Dutch East India Co. managed to gain the favour by telling the Shogun that they did not have that evil religion. They were allowed to practice trade on condition that the traders would not go outside a small artificial island at the southernmost tip of Japan, where later Madam Butterfly was supposed to have caught the what’s-his-name American. The Dutch traders were obliged to make a tribute to the Shogun every three years (might have been two) by going up to the capital, some 900 miles away, with as many gifts as they could manage. On one of these occasions, a captain from the trading station was ordered to take his clothes off and put them back on again because the Shogun wanted to know how buttons on his clothes worked. In another occasion, the Dutch had to provide the Shogun with Western horses, live, with trainers and vets. They managed after three attempts (I think). The Dutch traders did not bring in any art or music but supplied vast amount of scientific and technical knowledge to Japanese scholars whose interest was insatiable. From not knowing a word of Dutch nor any Western science or technoligy, the scholars managed to publish an encyclopaedia (of a sort) on the subjects (in Japanese) within their lifetime (I think). The Dutch traders were also required to submit annual report on what was happening outside Japan.

The Dutch were not quite banished but became out of favour when the country opened up to the West in 1859 (or thereabout) by an invitation from America to become a trading partner. Whatever America and other Western nations actually thought about Japan then, they never treated Japan other than as an equal partner (I think it was around this time when Western classical music began to arrive in Japan). Until, that is, the wars came about. Even after the Second World War, General MacArthur dismantled the Emperor’s status as God and disbanded the few top moneyed families. Beyond that he (and others) had no (major) involvement with Japanese politics.

Sorry about all this but I hope this somehow explains why I am sceptical about the influence of political and economic power of the West on/in Japan when it comes to music.

[Richard Tarleton]

Julian Bream, in Life on the Road, his memoir based on conversations with Tony Palmer, tells a hilarious clash-of-cultures story of a concert he was asked by the British Council to do, a long time ago, at a college in Assam where they hadn't had a concert of western music before. He went on stage to see hundreds of people, mostly women and children, milling about, babies crying....he played the first half of his normal concert, including a Bach suite, and went off for the interval, only to have the promoter hurry after him to ask where he was going....Bream said it was the interval, the promoter said Indian concerts didn't have intervals, Bream said western concerts have intervals half way through, the promoter said is this half way, Indian concerts go on for hours, and "Oh sahib, you must play longer than that because if not I'll have a riot on my hands". So Bream went back onstage and played every piece he could remember, until he ran out of pieces - didn't look up, didn't wait for applause because there wasn't any.... there was bedlam in the hall, people coming and going, noisy air conditioning units, his guitar constantly going out of tune...at the end the promoter gave him a huge pile of grubby banknotes that had been collected from the audience.....He'd agreed to do the concert with no fee on condition he was given a bottle of whisky and his plane ticket to Assam, so was able to go back to his hotel in a state of collapse and drink the whisky.

Nowadays I daresay something more interactive might have been considered appropriate.

[Serial_Apologist]

Julian Bream, in Life on the Road, his memoir based on conversations with Tony Palmer, tells a hilarious clash-of-cultures story of a concert he was asked by the British Council to do, a long time ago, at a college in Assam where they hadn't had a concert of western music before. He went on stage to see hundreds of people, mostly women and children, milling about, babies crying....he played the first half of his normal concert, including a Bach suite, and went off for the interval, only to have the promoter hurry after him to ask where he was going....Bream said it was the interval, the promoter said Indian concerts didn't have intervals, Bream said western concerts have intervals half way through, the promoter said is this half way, Indian concerts go on for hours, and "Oh sahib, you must play longer than that because if not I'll have a riot on my hands". So Bream went back onstage and played every piece he could remember, until he ran out of pieces - didn't look up, didn't wait for applause because there wasn't any.... there was bedlam in the hall, people coming and going, noisy air conditioning units, his guitar constantly going out of tune...at the end the promoter gave him a huge pile of grubby banknotes that had been collected from the audience.....He'd agreed to do the concert with no fee on condition he was given a bottle of whisky and his plane ticket to Assam, so was able to go back to his hotel in a state of collapse and drink the whisky.

Nowadays I daresay something more interactive might have been considered appropriate.

I've heard a similar story of an audience, totally unfamiliar with Western classical music, rapturously applauding an orchestra's tuning up routine.

[Richard Barrett]

I've heard a similar story of an audience, totally unfamiliar with Western classical music, rapturously applauding an orchestra's tuning up routine.

... like the audience at (was it?) Woodstock did when Ravi Shankar had finished tuning!

[Serial_Apologist]

... like the audience at (was it?) Woodstock did when Ravi Shankar had finished tuning!

I wouldn't be surprised!

[burning dog]

It was the Concert for Bangladesh more discussed at the time for John Lennon refusing to play without Yoko and McCartney "Washing his hair" that day

[Bryn]

I've heard a similar story of an audience, totally unfamiliar with Western classical music, rapturously applauding an orchestra's tuning up routine.

Well, if they had just performed the work of that title by Varese
.