Beethoven's 8th Symphony: Your Opinions

[jayne lee wilson]

Aptly metronomic speeds (Scherchen Norrington Gardiner etc), gorgeous 24/96 Golden-Musikverein sound, hot off the presses…

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/beethoven-symphonies-nos-6-8-live-wiener-symphoniker-philippe-jordan/koorq0ljcp9wc

I initially thought, not the warmth or wit or distinctiveness of Scherchen etc and were the lovely Viennese sonorities a shade too… comfortable? Possibly or even inescapably,….the band a shade big for my tastes (at least in the string section; winds are clear but set back in the mix).
But the Vienna Symphony play very incisively and it really grew on me - the coda to (i) is so fast and virtuosic it raised a laugh all by itself….
Gears down for a nicely relaxed minuet and trio…

Haven’t tried 6 yet, but this latest Beethoven 8 is a goodie. I would still reach for Zinman or Scherchen before it, but in a quick, precise and closely-observed reading, I love the way they play through the final chord and allow it to resonate.

Might be a good point of re-entry for the previously HIPPs- averse. It does everything Szell does, but better: cleaner, crisper, and above all - faster. (Philippe Jordan is more spontaneous too - The Szell has its noble place but can sometimes overbear with its overdiscipline as well as its sonorities.)

Go listen - but get that Scherchen done first to advance your education…

[cloughie]

... conveniently available in this marvellous bargain box -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01779EXHC/

[ ... well, it used to be a bargain - I got the 27 CD box for about £27 in May 2017. It seems to have gone up in price since. ]


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Bought the very same box and the Leibowitz box at the same time and price!

[Bryn]

... conveniently available in this marvellous bargain box -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01779EXHC/

[ ... well, it used to be a bargain - I got the 27 CD box for about £27 in May 2017. It seems to have gone up in price since. ]


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Yup. May 20th 2017 £27.76 incuding carriage. Great set.

[jayne lee wilson]

... conveniently available in this marvellous bargain box -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01779EXHC/

[ ... well, it used to be a bargain - I got the 27 CD box for about £27 in May 2017. It seems to have gone up in price since. ]


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Do Scribendum specify their sources, for the transfers...?

[Conchis]

Do Scribendum specify their sources, for the transfers...?

No, they don't.

I bought this box a couple of years ago, for what I remember was a good price. I think it's a grey market release and the original master tapes have clearly not been used. Another strange feature is the fact that there is virtually no pause between the tracks on the CDs, even when one work has finished - you're pitched straight into the next item.

[Maclintick]

Go listen - but get that Scherchen done first to advance your education…

Caught up with Scherchen today, in this edition...



Listened first & then consulted the RPO wiki to confirm I was hearing one of the finest orchestras ever assembled in the UK -- Beecham's RPO, in all but name, at its zenith a couple of years after their triumphal US tour, with the "Golden Family" of wind principals & probably also Dennis Brain as first horn, rising magnificently to the challenge of Scherchen's inspired direction. It may not be the audiophile choice in terms of the transfer, but the 50s mono sound is good and clear. Apropos of your point, JLW, that the string body seems quite HIPP-ishly small, at least compared to a lot of modern-instrument versions, it's sometimes noticeable in mono recordings of this and earlier vintages that the back string desks lack presence, being a long way from the microphone. Whether that was the case here, I've no idea, but I was astonished by the overall clarity -- timps especially, had a crispness I normally associate with HIPP calf-heads and hard sticks. Thanks so much for the recommendation -- a revelation !

[jayne lee wilson]

**
Scherchen Beethoven 8….remasters transfers etc…

The MCA and Tahra CDs are quite similar in sound, but the MCA has greater ambience and detail; the Tahra trades off some space and definition for a slightly smoother HF. The difference isn’t huge, but I had a distinct preference for the MCA, which had the more obviously master-tape sound - that fresher, acoustical & instrumental presence. Interesting as it is the earliest transfer I have (1996 - Tahra, 2009). Very well done.

(If you do find the MCA, c/w stereo No.6, it is a great buy as the 6th is a lovely, expressive example of Scherchen’s art - in Vienna (and with something of the sound of old Vienna too), rather than London, with a fuller-sounding band. It doesn’t share the notorious indiscipline of the contemporaneous stereo 3rd - though given the exhilaratingly ultra-fast 1st movement (no repeat, 7’45) there are occasional approximations. The brook flows along, breezy and beautiful. The horns in the Peasants’ Dance are on the ragged edge, but this is 1950s Vienna after all so, give them a break. (I do just prefer the mono 1951 Pastoral all the same..)

The Pristine 24-bit mono (RPO 2 c/w 8) has less ultimate detail on space or solos, but a lovely warmth, fullness and body, slightly muted treble, sounding like a demo of the cliché-vaunted attractions of vinyl sound…! Some might find the others a touch fierce sometimes, so here, you have an ideal alternative…very enjoyable & not only in isolation.

(Scherchen Beethoven 2,4,5,8 - RPO Mono. 1,3,6,7,9 - VSOO/VSO Mono; Later (1958) 3 & 6- VSO Stereo.)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Symphonies-Nos-6-8/dp/B000025GAT/ref=sr_1_13?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1553013140&sr=1-13&keywords=scherchen+beethoven

[cloughie]

Slightly away from the eighth, but still with Scherchen the Westminster coupling of the Eroica and the Pastoral with the VSOO is on one CD, Around 90 mins would be the norm for the coupling!

[Maclintick]

**
Scherchen Beethoven 8….remasters transfers etc…

That's an über-comprehensive list, JLW (& forgive me for not quoting it in full). Extremely helpful. Many thanks.

[edashtav]

I remember reading, years ago, that Mahler used to regularly whistle the opening bars of Beethoven's Eighth on his way to work. Those bars seem to open the door to so much that is good in the world and it seems to me that one has to go to some effort not to like this symphony.

and here's a few words culled from an American programme note:

"The indefatigable music appreciationist Sigmund Spaeth, who in 1936 published lyrics to serve as mnemonic devices for the classic symphonies, found an opportunity to leap to the composer’s defense with his rhyme for this opening theme: “Beethoven still is great, in the symphony he numbered eight."

What's not to like, Conchis?

[alycidon]

I don’t think that either Conchis or I have said that we dislike the eighth - I certainly don’t dislike it. I think that what we are both attempting to convey is that it seems so inconsequential compared with the other eight symphonies.

[Richard Barrett]

I don’t think that either Conchis or I have said that we dislike the eighth

I think Conchis certainly has, unless "the final movement has to be the ugliest, most ungainly thing that LvB ever wrote. I'm astonished he put his name to it" is what counts as damning with faint praise... well, not everyone can like everything. I wouldn't usually say the 8th is my favourite Beethoven symphony, but one of the things about Beethoven that I sometimes (not always) find a bit hard to take (which is why I listen to his string quartets far more often than to his orchestral music) is his bombastic tendency, and there's very little of that in the 8th, so I can imagine times when I'd much rather hear it than say the 5th or 9th. Actually there aren't too many occasions when I really feel like hearing the 9th, if truth be told.

[alycidon]

Yes. I suppose some of his statements were rather pejorative when put like that. I first came to classical music in my early teens - Beethoven was my hero and could do no wrong. Obviously, at seventy-five I have modified my enthusiasm somewhat but I just cannot get the quartets as much as I try., other than Op 130 and that cavatina - wow! And if I am truthful I have difficulty getting into some of the piano sonatas. Probably a rank deficiency on my part, but I think that it goes to show that however great LVB was, and he was great, there are still some works that some people just don’t get.

[jayne lee wilson]

I think Conchis certainly has, unless "the final movement has to be the ugliest, most ungainly thing that LvB ever wrote. I'm astonished he put his name to it" is what counts as damning with faint praise... well, not everyone can like everything. I wouldn't usually say the 8th is my favourite Beethoven symphony, but one of the things about Beethoven that I sometimes (not always) find a bit hard to take (which is why I listen to his string quartets far more often than to his orchestral music) is his bombastic tendency, and there's very little of that in the 8th, so I can imagine times when I'd much rather hear it than say the 5th or 9th. Actually there aren't too many occasions when I really feel like hearing the 9th, if truth be told.

"Bombastic" in the 5th or the 9th? I prescribe HIPPs, period instruments and Chamber Orchestras and small choruses...
But I think you are already taking that medicine so...there may still be hope.

***
alycidon.... doesn't the opening of the Op. 18/6 Quartet not simply lift your heart and your spirits...?
Try it again, now....oh, go on...

[jayne lee wilson]

I don’t think that either Conchis or I have said that we dislike the eighth - I certainly don’t dislike it. I think that what we are both attempting to convey is that it seems so inconsequential compared with the other eight symphonies.

But Beethoven was too great, self-critical and self renewing an artist not to sense the time to change course. From 3-7, his symphonism is increasingly expansive, heroic, even visionary. Multiple. What could possibly come next? Surely a certain concentration and compression, a relaxation of mood and aim. (Surely the 8th is a more intense artwork than the 4th anyway?).

Which absolutely doesn't mean inconsequential, anymore than you would say this of - Sibelius 6, 7 & Tapiola, Max Davies 5th, or DSCH 6 and 9...or other symphonic neutron stars following epics and larger public statements....
Think about why Bruckner's 6th comes after 3, 4 and 5.....
Or Mahler 4 after 2 & 3....