Beethoven's 8th Symphony: Your Opinions

[ardcarp]

Beecham (is reputed to have) said of the Finale of the Seventh Symphony, ardy; "What can you do with it? It's like a herd of yaks jumping about!"

That's the quote, ferney. Sorry I got the wrong symphony! I think Beecham was fond of animal similes. (Cats and tin roofs spring to mimd.)

[Conchis]

I must admit, I'm not surprised that Beethoven-sceptic Beecham liked this 'hail fellow, well met' of a symphony.

[cloughie]

I must admit, I'm not surprised that Beethoven-sceptic Beacham liked this 'hail fellow, well met' of a symphony.

Maybe he wasn’t so much of a sceptic - His 2 7 and 8 were all very good! But then I’m not a Beecham sceptic - His Haydn and Schubert were also very good. Also note your spelling - I assume you meant Tommy and no Stephanie!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

That's the quote, ferney. Sorry I got the wrong symphony! I think Beecham was fond of animal similes. (Cats and tin roofs spring to mimd.)

Wasn't that "skeletons" - or am I thinking of another Beecham simile?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The 8th was the second Beethoven symphony I heard live (Halle/Barbirolli). I'd already seen/heard the same performers in the 5th symphony - a concert that included David Oistrakh in Beethoven's Violin Concerto.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Wasn't that "skeletons" - or am I thinking of another Beecham simile?

That was Beecham's view on harpsichords, sounding like two skeletons copulating on a corrugated iron roof.

[Conchis]

Maybe he wasn’t so much of a sceptic - His 2 7 and 8 were all very good! But then I’m not a Beecham sceptic - His Haydn and Schubert were also very good. Also note your spelling - I assume you meant Tommy and no Stephanie!

I like Beecham (apologies for spelling), especially for his wonderfully un-HIP Mozart, Handel and Haydn, but I certainly don't agree with him on the subject of LvB.

[pastoralguy]

The 8th was the second Beethoven symphony I heard live (Halle/Barbirolli). I'd already seen/heard the same performers in the 5th symphony - a concert that included David Oistrakh in Beethoven's Violin Concerto.

Wow!! What I would have given to hear David Oistrakh live in ANYTHING let alone the Beethoven Concerto!

[Maclintick]

I 'd hazard gut strings, too, from the tone of the upper register.

Thanks, Bryn. Whatever the mix, HIPP-lite or Historically-Flavoured-Contemporary, I really do rather rate this Basel KO/Antonini version..

Anima Eterna/Van Immerseel -- Lithe & spirited period rendition, but with some less-than-stellar playing. Fine as a basic lower-pitch Hipp account, but not as compelling as Orch 18th Cent/Brüggen, which still stands up very well.

La Chambre Philharmonique/Krivine -- Wow ! Impressively well-played & dynamic, with sensible speeds. Krivine secures top results from an authentic period instrument ensemble playing at fractionally lower pitch than 440 (432 ?). The recording is close-miked, & especially on headphones doesn’t quite convince this listener as a realistic representation of an ensemble playing in an acoustic, though the excitement quotient more than compensates--probably the result of the engineers attempting to exclude ambient noise from a live performance, & presenting the orchestra as an agglomeration of acoustic blocks instead of a coherent sound-stage. I'd be interested to know what our resident audio buffs think...

Of non-Hipp versions I love the dynamism & lean energy of Cleveland/Szell which IMHO inhabits Beethoven's sound-world & summons the spirit of this remarkable symphony in a way that the luxuriously-toned Dresden or Vienna accounts don't.

[Richard Barrett]

That Beecham was a shining wit to be sure.

Of non-Hipp versions I love the dynamism & lean energy of Cleveland/Szell which IMHO inhabits Beethoven's sound-world & summons the spirit of this remarkable symphony in a way that the luxuriously-toned Dresden or Vienna accounts don't.

These days I find it very hard to listen to Beethoven (still less Mozart or Haydn) played with a string ensemble of late 19th century size, I don't care much how HIPP or otherwise it is.

[jayne lee wilson]

That Beecham was a shining wit to be sure.

These days I find it very hard to listen to Beethoven (still less Mozart or Haydn) played with a string ensemble of late 19th century size, I don't care much how HIPP or otherwise it is.

I guess I don't share Beecham's sense of humour.....(too much of the self-congratulatory English Gentleman about it for me..)

Otherwise with you all the way, but did you ever hear the 1954 Scherchen..? Or the Zinman, with a trimmed down Tonhalle...?
The Scherchen has a weighty punch but it has the requisite articulation-at-speed, a miracle of light-on-its-feet HIPPS-avant-la-lettre....yet it has warmth and expressive range, stunningly crisp rhythmic ensemble, and the RPO doesn't sound terribly large on it either.
(I could say that it makes Szell sound very grand and old-fashioned and Romantic, but that would be provocative wouldn't it? But then I try Szell's minuet and think - no, it's absolutely true!)

Always surprised how few listeners know about it, it is a truly pioneering legend of the Gramophone...Pristine 24-bit mono: it's playing now and wow and how! I can never turn this one off...

https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/artist-hermann-scherchen/products/pasc198

Sadly the excerpt is of the (equally wonderful) 2nd, but scroll down for Boyd Pomeroy's last paragraph, which tells it like it is...
He's right about the minuet but the trio is indeed wonderful so don't let it put you off...

But Qobuz have it on Tahra, another great transfer with a slightly lighter, leaner sonority, which may suit the Barrett tastes or ears better...

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/symphonies-n5-a-8-ludwig-van-beethoven-hermann-scherchen-ii/3504129067519

A bit of a Scherchen obsessive, I think I've owned this recording on 3 different transfers - it was once on Millennium Classics. But these two are very good so no Caveats here....the main distinction is that the Pristine is sourced from LP, the others from the original tapes AFAIK...

[Richard Barrett]

I guess I don't share Beecham's sense of humour.....(too much of the self-congratulatory English Gentleman about it for me..)

Otherwise with you all the way

I thought everyone would cotton on to the fact that "shining wit" was intended as a spoonerism.

I'm an admirer of Scherchen too, as you might imagine, although I don't know very many of his recordings.

[Maclintick]

That Beecham was a shining wit to be sure.

These days I find it very hard to listen to Beethoven (still less Mozart or Haydn) played with a string ensemble of late 19th century size, I don't care much how HIPP or otherwise it is.

So does that mean you would prefer to hear, say, an ensemble with a string strength of 6-6-4-4-2 playing Beethoven with molto vibrato, scoopy portamenti & anachronistic tempi, rather than a modern band of 14-12-10-8-6, playing sans-vib, crisply accented, at or near the composer's metronome markings ?

[Richard Barrett]

So does that mean you would prefer to hear, say, an ensemble with a string strength of 6-6-4-4-2 playing Beethoven with molto vibrato, scoopy portamenti & anachronistic tempi, rather than a modern band of 14-12-10-8-6, playing sans-vib, crisply accented, at or near the composer's metronome markings ?

I don't think I'd care much for either of those!

[vinteuil]

.... did you ever hear the 1954 Scherchen..?
The Scherchen has a weighty punch but it has the requisite articulation-at-speed, a miracle of light-on-its-feet HIPPS-avant-la-lettre....yet it has warmth and expressive range, stunningly crisp rhythmic ensemble, and the RPO doesn't sound terribly large on it either.
(I could say that it makes Szell sound very grand and old-fashioned and Romantic, but that would be provocative wouldn't it? But then I try Szell's minuet and think - no, it's absolutely true!)

Always surprised how few listeners know about it, it is a truly pioneering legend of the Gramophone...Pristine 24-bit mono: it's playing now and wow and how! I can never turn this one off...

https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/artist-hermann-scherchen/products/pasc198

A bit of a Scherchen obsessive, I think I've owned this recording on 3 different transfers - it was once on Millennium Classics. But these two are very good so no Caveats here....the main distinction is that the Pristine is sourced from LP, the others from the original tapes AFAIK...

... conveniently available in this marvellous bargain box -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01779EXHC/

[ ... well, it used to be a bargain - I got the 27 CD box for about £27 in May 2017. It seems to have gone up in price since. ]


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