Beethoven's 8th Symphony: Your Opinions

[MickyD]

Strange how we differ, I absolutely love the piece, finding it one of the most joyous things Beethoven ever wrote. I have a fondness for the huge, big-band Hogwood version - it is rather an over the top performance, but it excites me still.

[Richard Barrett]

something so uninspired

It might seem that the gap between "good" and "bad" Beethoven is wider than with most composers (Wellingtons Sieg might be mentioned in this connection). But one of the most individualistic and "modern" aspects of Beethoven is that he didn't pay much attention to other people's idea of what is beautiful, tasteful, appropriate etc. in music. The fact that so much of his work is enshrined in the "classical canon" shouldn't cause one to lose sight of that fact. Where does the 8th Symphony fit in? I admit it did take me many years to get to grips with it. But I think it's necessary to give a composer with an achievement like Beethoven's the benefit of the doubt in situations like this, assume that he wouldn't compose, perform and publish a symphony without really "meaning it", and at least suspect that if it seems uninspired that's the result of a lack of imagination on one's own part rather than Beethoven's. I think the 8th might be seen as an example of the sense of irony which was an integral though now perhaps underappreciated part of the Romantic way of looking at things. It concerns itself with the "impossibility" of writing a "classical" symphony at a time when society and attitudes had changed decisively. The first movement, for example, seems to me concerned with a dialectic between confidence and uncertainty, constantly undermining whatever sense of fullness, balance and direction there is in its thematic material with quizzical repetitions, sudden darkenings and so on. This kind of idea recurs in different ways throughout the piece. I don't think that's very difficult to hear if one opens one's mind to it. Whether that changes one's mind is another matter; but surely an art as sophisticated and multilayered as Beethoven's deserves a somewhat more considered appraisal than "I like it"/"I don't like it".

[pastoralguy]

A superb work. And great fun to play!

[Richard Barrett]

Hardly an accident of Beethoven's part.

The end of the second movement is actually one of the strangest things Beethoven ever wrote, succeeded by a minuet (rather than a scherzo) which pulls the listener back into familiar territory until its rhythms start tripping over one another.

[pastoralguy]

Wasn't The Eighth the work that the late Sir Colin Davis described as being 'like a religious conversion' when he heard it for the first time as a child? He said that the rest of his life was defined from that moment on, iirc.

[cloughie]

I don't think that's very difficult to hear if one opens one's mind to it. Whether that changes one's mind is another matter; but surely an art as sophisticated and multilayered as Beethoven's deserves a somewhat more considered appraisal than "I like it"/"I don't like it".

Depends how analytical you wish to be or by just relying on what hits the ear. Take for example Beethoven 9 - I like movements 1,2 & 3 - I dislike movt 4.

[Darkbloom]

Many people find the playful side of LvB embarrassing, although I'm not one of them. The consensus seems to be that that kind of thing was better left to Haydn (which was Furtwangler's opinion of the 8th), and perhaps his earthy sense of humour doesn't translate well today. Added to which, it's hard to find the right spot for it in a concert - slightly too heavy for the first half, yet a little too frolicsome to make a satisfying final piece of a programme. The first movement is one of my favourite pieces of Beethoven, with the strikingly confident opening, and an overall impression that he is having fun with the listener.

[pastoralguy]

Depends how analytical you wish to be or by just relying on what hits the ear. Take for example Beethoven 9 - I like movements 1,2 & 3 - I dislike movt 4.

Even the big fugue in the middle?! I'm not enamoured by all of the last movement but there are some terrific bits.

[Conchis]

It might seem that the gap between "good" and "bad" Beethoven is wider than with most composers (Wellingtons Sieg might be mentioned in this connection). But one of the most individualistic and "modern" aspects of Beethoven is that he didn't pay much attention to other people's idea of what is beautiful, tasteful, appropriate etc. in music. The fact that so much of his work is enshrined in the "classical canon" shouldn't cause one to lose sight of that fact. Where does the 8th Symphony fit in? I admit it did take me many years to get to grips with it. But I think it's necessary to give a composer with an achievement like Beethoven's the benefit of the doubt in situations like this, assume that he wouldn't compose, perform and publish a symphony without really "meaning it", and at least suspect that if it seems uninspired that's the result of a lack of imagination on one's own part rather than Beethoven's. I think the 8th might be seen as an example of the sense of irony which was an integral though now perhaps underappreciated part of the Romantic way of looking at things. It concerns itself with the "impossibility" of writing a "classical" symphony at a time when society and attitudes had changed decisively. The first movement, for example, seems to me concerned with a dialectic between confidence and uncertainty, constantly undermining whatever sense of fullness, balance and direction there is in its thematic material with quizzical repetitions, sudden darkenings and so on. This kind of idea recurs in different ways throughout the piece. I don't think that's very difficult to hear if one opens one's mind to it. Whether that changes one's mind is another matter; but surely an art as sophisticated and multilayered as Beethoven's deserves a somewhat more considered appraisal than "I like it"/"I don't like it".

That's an excellent elucidation, and I can hear all of that in the music :), even though it doesn't make me enjoy it any more than I do.

I suppose, to be kind, I could regard it as a 'work symphony' - ie, a composer getting off his backside and creating something even if he didn't feel particularly inspired by an idea. Richard Strauss has a lot of such works.

[cloughie]

Even the big fugue in the middle?! I'm not enamoured by all of the last movement but there are some terrific bits.

Yes - maybe I was being a little 'no shades of grey'. The parson's egg philosophy rules!

[cloughie]

That's an excellent elucidation, and I can hear all of that in the music :), even though it doesn't make me enjoy it any more than I do.

I suppose, to be kind, I could regard it as a 'work symphony' - ie, a composer getting off his backside and creating something even if he didn't feel particularly inspired by an idea. Richard Strauss has a lot of such works.

Which RSt works were you thinking of?

[Richard Barrett]

Depends how analytical you wish to be or by just relying on what hits the ear.

Unless you actually want to have some kind of discussion about it! (of course one could also have a discussion about how it is that things "hit the ear" in different ways!)

I don't know about the "Beethoven having fun" way of looking at it. I think there's always more to Beethoven than that. (And I'm not speaking as an uncritical admirer of Beethoven's work, about much of which I'll probably never make my mind up definitively.) Surely there's a memory of Beethoven's second movement in Mahler's "Purgatorio"... Beethoven's irony is more related to Mahler's than to Haydn's, maybe.

[gurnemanz]

re mvt 4 of No 8. Starts with a a slightly deranged, urgent but going-nowhere dance (a bit like the final mvt of the 7th), fluctuating dynamics, random silences, portentousness and frivolity, pretty interludes, ominous rumblings + a joke ending. Not quite all human life is here but a big chunk of it.

[Conchis]

Which RSt works were you thinking of?

Joseflegende, Burleske, and the operas Die Liebe der Danae, Die Egzyptzsche Helene, Friedenstag, Die Schweigsame Frau.

[Bryn]

Yes - maybe I was being a little 'no shades of grey'. The parson's egg philosophy rules!

Blimey! I know there is antipathy here towards the modern trend of applying the concept of curation to everything, but to make the curate a parson? That just perpetuates the situation.