Beethoven's 8th Symphony: Your Opinions

[gurnemanz]

Whatever the motivation of the thread's instigator might have been, I have been grateful for the discussion it has prompted. What is this board for if not to share one's experience of music with others? It can make you focus on a work in a slightly new way following the comments of others. It has just sent me back to Norrington's Symph 2 and 8 with London Classical Players which was a very early CD purchase of mine (1987) and which I hadn't played for ages. Very enjoyable.

The Norrington sleeve note has just reminded me that yes it came between 7 and 9 but not really because it came straight after 7 but he didn't get around to 9 till 11 years later

[cloughie]

None of my threads aim to wind people up: that would be pointless, besides which, I think people would realise the fact and make a point of ignoring them. You won't see me posting threads with titles like 'Bruckner: Talentless?' or 'Beethoven 9: Overrated?' because that would represent looking for an argument (though some people might argue that the 9th IS overrated - I'm not one of them, btw - I don't think the argument gets off the ground when put against the work's influence and impact).

No: the point of this thread was to engage in a discussion by stating my own, clear view at the beginning. Most people seem to be in various degree of disagreement with me, but I've enjoyed reading their rationales and finding out what they like about the piece. Point of fact is, while I like most of Beethoven's output, I'm equivocal about the symphonies (I've never much liked 1 or 2 and I blow hot and cold on 4, though I can let the first two go on the grounds of 'early works/finding his style").

Nothing wrong with a ‘I don’t this a lot but what do you reckon’ thread, Conchis.

[Richard Barrett]

Nothing wrong with a ‘I don’t this a lot but what do you reckon’ thread, Conchis.

No indeed, although "why did he bother?" ... "bereft of inspiration. And the final movement has to be the ugliest, most ungainly thing that LvB ever wrote. I'm astonished he put his name to it" goes just a little further than that! Never mind. Those comments and this thread have actually increased my appreciation of the piece - when someone issues such a blanket condemnation I always find myself thinking wait a minute, it surely can't be that bad.

[Barbirollians]

Nothing wrong with a ‘I don’t this a lot but what do you reckon’ thread, Conchis.

No problem here with challenging received wisdom !

I love this symphony though - Karajan’s Philharmonia and 1960sBPO accounts and one perhaps for Conchis to try - the late Columbia SO Bruno Walter.

[Conchis]

No problem here with challenging received wisdom !

I love this symphony though - Karajan’s Philharmonia and 1960sBPO accounts and one perhaps for Conchis to try - the late Columbia SO Bruno Walter.

I have the Walter Columbia set on vinyl but no longer have a functioning record player.

In his lifetime, Walter was not considered one of the more convincing Beethoven interpreters: some felt his natural approach was 'too reflective'.

I'll scout around on youtube and see if his 8th is on there.....

[kea]

The Norrington sleeve note has just reminded me that yes it came between 7 and 9 but not really because it came straight after 7 but he didn't get around to 9 till 11 years later

Sketches for the first three movements of the 9th start to surface around the same time as those for the 8th though. Beethoven's creative & personal crisis of 1813-14 (including his alleged affair or lack thereof with Antonie Brentano, the second version of Fidelio also turning out to be a flop, etc) is what got in the way & he didn't return to those sketches for a long time, which may be why the last movement of the 9th is so different from the three that precede it.

In any case I also consider the 8th one of my favourites & can see both ironic distance, humour and a fairly significant amount of experimentation in it. A lot of the music hinges on moments of radical disorientation, which he had introduced in a few places in the 7th and used even more extensively here, from the very beginning (the opening theme of the piece has a dissociated or "bipolar" quality) to the very end (a 53 bar F major pedal preceded by a barely noticeable cadence and therefore seeming totally unjustified and out of proportion—like Beethoven satirising the end of his own 5th).

[Barbirollians]

I have the Walter Columbia set on vinyl but no longer have a functioning record player.

In his lifetime, Walter was not considered one of the more convincing Beethoven interpreters: some felt his natural approach was 'too reflective'.

I'll scout around on youtube and see if his 8th is on there.....

I recall some reviewers did not like its lack of a pulse apparently but I have always rather enjoyed it not being very hard driven.

[silvestrione]

Whatever the motivation of the thread's instigator might have been, I have been grateful for the discussion it has prompted. What is this board for if not to share one's experience of music with others? It can make you focus on a work in a slightly new way following the comments of others. It has just sent me back to Norrington's Symph 2 and 8 with London Classical Players which was a very early CD purchase of mine (1987) and which I hadn't played for ages. Very enjoyable.

The Norrington sleeve note has just reminded me that yes it came between 7 and 9 but not really because it came straight after 7 but he didn't get around to 9 till 11 years later

Tovey suggests that Beethoven has a minuet 3rd movement here because there's no true slow movement, and that he intended a broad tempo. Karajan is sometimes thought to go too far in this respect, but I like it. I'm curious to know what Norrington does: does he rush it?

[Bryn]

Tovey suggests that Beethoven has a minuet 3rd movement here because there's no true slow movement, and that he intended a broad tempo. Karajan is sometimes thought to go too far in this respect, but I like it. I'm curious to know what Norrington does: does he rush it?

When you say "rush it", do you perhaps mean "conducts it at the tempo indicated by the composer's own metronome indications? If so, yes, Norrington does tend to take Beethoven's metronome markings as his starting point regarding tempi.

[Tony Halstead]

When you say "rush it", do you perhaps mean "conducts it at the tempo indicated by the composer#sown metronome indications? If so, yes, Norrington does tend to take Beethoven's metronome markings as his starting point regarding tempi.

with the slight reservation that IMV the only one of Sir Roger's 'metronome decisions' that didn't 'work' was the rather laboured March in the 4th movement of Symphony 9.

[jayne lee wilson]

.... listening to Scherchen last night, I really was LOL again at the games-of-expectation it plays with the listener, formal and emotional; how much it says in so brief a space; how it almost sounds like Beethoven sending himself up - especially in that hilarious coda..

Robert Simpson, at the end of his witty account of the finale, says:

"One is reminded of the incident when Beethoven, walking (or rather stampeding) in the country and singing (or rather bellowing) was all at once hit by a tremendous idea, with terrifying effect on a herd a of cattle; whereupon he was himself driven from the field by an angry herdsman who though him an escaped lunatic. There are plenty of unsubstantiated anecdotes about Beethoven; but the finale of the 8th is suspiciously like internal evidence for this one."

(Off for Any Questions now: hoping to get outraged by a good old Beethoven-8-finale style set-to..(wit might be in shorter supply though)....)

[Bryn]

with the slight reservation that IMV the only one of Sir Roger's 'metronome decisions' that didn't 'work' was the rather laboured March in the 4th movement of Symphony 9.

I think he later offered self-criticism regarding that. Do you know his later Stuttgart recording? I seem to recall he referred to having made a misreading when preparing the LCP recording. I wish I still had the Christmas television broadcasts of the symphonies. Unfortunately the VHS tapes went in a house fire in the late 1980s.

[silvestrione]

When you say "rush it", do you perhaps mean "conducts it at the tempo indicated by the composer's own metronome indications? If so, yes, Norrington does tend to take Beethoven's metronome markings as his starting point regarding tempi.

Not a good word, or question! I was wondering about tempo relations and how they worked. I've had a listen to Norrington in 8 on YouTube and thoroughly enjoyed it. IMV the woodwind sound 'hurried' occasionally in the first movement, but the middle two relate well and the third movement is splendid.

[Vile Consort]

Interesting thread, which has prompted me to listen to this work, which I, also, have rather dismissed in the past as being too lightweight. Indeed, it's so long since I last listened to it that I honestly hadn't the faintest recollection of how it went until I heard it again. Of course, it emerged from the recesses of the memory as soon as I heard the opening bars. Frankly, I found it delightful and fascinating.

[Maclintick]

Interesting thread, which has prompted me to listen to this work, which I, also, have rather dismissed in the past as being too lightweight. Indeed, it's so long since I last listened to it that I honestly hadn't the faintest recollection of how it went until I heard it again. Of course, it emerged from the recesses of the memory as soon as I heard the opening bars. Frankly, I found it delightful and fascinating.

Same here. The thread prompted a trawl through the versions offered by TS in his informative Beethoven-guide:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/feb/11/symphony-guide-beethoven-eighth

ORR/Gardiner -- Robust & emphatic in usual JEG style, although the woodwind are unsmiling & dully Hippy-ish. Crisp & convincing tempi for the first 3 movements, but the finale hysterically over-driven to the point of giving the strings no chance of articulating with the requisite intensity -- "viel schlamperei" as OK might have said. If Gardiner set out to prove that Beethoven was a madman, he's certainly succeeded in this scrambled finale.

Staatskapelle Dresden/Davis -- Beautifully played, but stodgy after JEG.

VPO/Thielemann -- Again lovely playing, but again tempi a tad slow, & the VPO can't help themselves from occasionally slipping into stylistically inapt Schubertian charm.

Where next ?