Chamber Orchestras

[Alison]

So HIPP ensembles weren’t a natural follow on from Sir Neville and his Academy?

Not quite sure who or what gave me that misguided notion!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So HIPP ensembles weren’t a natural follow on from Sir Neville and his Academy?
Not quite sure who or what gave me that misguided notion!

I think that at least some HIPP Musicians in the UK did "follow on" from Marriner (Hogwood and Pinnock both played with the ASMF) - but he himself (and Leppard, we shouldn't forget) followed on from Boyd Neel & Jacques - and Thurston Dart, of course. (And, moving away from chamber orchestras, from Arnold Dolmetsch before them.)

I think Harnoncourt and other European HIPP Musicians developed more from Muchinger and Richter, rather than the UK tradition(s).

[Padraig]

And what a legacy we have as a result!

Yes! Apart from my EP of the original Basle Chamber Orchestra.

Paul Sacher 1906 - 1999

https://www.theguardian.com/news/1999/may/27/guardianobituaries

[Boilk]

Have there always been chamber orchestras?

None found in the fossil record or cave paintings (!) but I wonder whether Schoenberg sort of got the ball rolling for the 20th century chamber orchestra (so not just dodecaphony) when in 1909 he penned his Kammersymphonie Op.9? Scoring is one each of all winds (except 2 horns), and even strings (1st violin, 2nd violin, viola, cello, bass). In the Second Chamber Symphony he has two each of winds/brass, or thereabouts.

[jayne lee wilson]

And what a legacy we have as a result!

..and continuing the tradition now with the Kammerorchester Basel, not least in the Haydn 2032 series....on period instruments. This very flexible, wide-ranging ensemble change their instruments to match the repertoire, which still ranges widely from Baroque to Contemporary......

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Scoring is one each of all winds (except 2 horns), and even strings (1st violin, 2nd violin, viola, cello, bass).

Just to clarify - there's an Oboe and a Cor Anglais (requiring two players) and three clarinettists (playing instruments in D, in A, and a Bass) - hence the full title "Kammersymphonie fyr 15 Solo-Instrumente".

[Richard Barrett]

Just to clarify - there's an Oboe and a Cor Anglais (requiring two players) and three clarinettists (playing instruments in D, in A, and a Bass) - hence the full title "Kammersymphonie für 15 Solo-Instrumente".

Yes, this was certainly a forerunner of the by now enormous repertoire of pieces for 10-20 players. I wouldn't call Schoenberg's ensemble a chamber orchestra though - rightly or wrongly I think of an orchestra as something that involves a larger complement of strings.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes, this was certainly a forerunner of the by now enormous repertoire of pieces for 10-20 players. I wouldn't call Schoenberg's ensemble a chamber orchestra though - rightly or wrongly I think of an orchestra as something that involves a larger complement of strings.

Yes - it's more a pentadectet!

I wonder what size the Salzburg Mozarteum orchestra was when Karajan studied conducting with Paumgartner in the 1920s? Paumgartner used the orchestra at the Salzburg Festival for concerts of the Serenades and similar works - and he was later (from 1945) the founder of the Camerata Salzburg, an ensemble of the same sort of set-up as the ASMF etc.

[edashtav]

Have there always been chamber orchestras?

If not, who thought of them first? Sir Neville? Harry Blech?

I think, Alison, that a case can be made for a long history of chamber orchestras with repertoire to match, certainly through the 19th century. Virtuosi visited towns large and small and took with them pieces that suited the local orchestra. Maybe, a concerto would stretch both orchestral resources and the concentration of audiences in some 'off the beaten track' venues. Composers created suitable calling cards. If you examine the Violin and Orchestra Romances of Beethoven, Dvorak, Svendsen, Reger and Sibelius, all are scored for "chamber" orchestras and were written to be accessible and commercial. They achieved penetration. I suspect that, at the time of Svendsen's death, his Violin Romance op.26 was better known than his Violin Concerto op.7 and, it was widely considered to have been his finest work.
Horses for courses.

[Alison]

Some very interesting answers, thank you.

Good point about those Violin Romances, Tavers: not sure we’ve ever had a Svendsen thread. I think the op 26 is a lovely piece.

[bluestateprommer]

From the German wikipedia page on "Orchester", this is a reworked-from-the-Google-Translation passage specifically focused on chamber orchestras:

"A chamber orchestra is much smaller than a symphony orchestra, as most groups of instruments are smaller or completely eliminated (e.g. percussion, tuba or trombone). The boundaries to the large ensemble are fluid. A special form is the string orchestra.

The first modern chamber orchestras were created in the 1920s. The main cause was a counter-movement to the increasing dimensions of late romantic music and the gigantic orchestras necessary for this. The rediscovery of "old" music and the precarious economic situation, which made it difficult to maintain very large ensembles, also played a role. Also, film orchestras (to accompany silent films) were of mostly chamber orchestra size.

Because of the lower economic risk, it was also possible to perform with a chamber orchestra more contemporary music. One case was the Basel Chamber Orchestra, founded by Paul Sacher in 1926 with this objective. Until its dissolution in 1987, the orchestra played numerous works commissioned by Sacher, such as Béla Bartók, Igor Stravinsky, Hans Werner Henze and Witold Lutosławski.

The increasing abandonment by the public for Romantic music and the appropriate line-up made the chamber orchestra the ideal ensemble for performances of the largely forgotten Baroque and Classical music. In this respect, Karl Münchinger, in particular, thrived with the Stuttgarter Kammerorchester, founded after the Second World War, and its trim, "unromantic" style of interpretation.

Since the 1950s, specialist ensembles have emerged that deal intensively with the special instrumentation, notation and technical requirements of avant-garde composers, which are difficult to master by a classical chamber orchestra.

The revival from the 1970s onwards of music from older ages resulted in numerous formations that would perform in varying configurations - from the solo trio to the chamber orchestra with brass ensembles - and often without a conductor. Examples include the Musica Antiqua Köln and the Collegium Aureum."

[Dave2002]

Yes! Apart from my EP of the original Basle Chamber Orchestra.

Paul Sacher 1906 - 1999

https://www.theguardian.com/news/199...dianobituaries

A very interesting article about Paul Sacher’s life, though it appears to skim over how he achieved his great wealth. Admittedly he married the widow of one of the major directors of a pharmaceutical company, but that as a fact does not illuminate how he knew the lady, nor how he presumably furthered the business. There are historical cases of people who have inherited situations a bit like this, who have spent all the money, and ruined companies. Sacher obviously didn’t.

That aside, I had previously no idea of how many orchestras and vocal groups Paul Sacher was involved with and/or founded, nor that he performed with major orchestras and in opera houses, including Glyndebourne. A very interesting man, with an unusual life , and perhaps a lot of luck - though was his luck the sort he had to work at?

[Tony Halstead]

From the German wikipedia page on "Orchester", this is a reworked-from-the-Google-Translation passage specifically focused on chamber orchestras:

The London Chamber Orchestra is nearly 100 years old, having been founded in 1921 by Anthony Bernard. It still exists, and has a London concert season, under its conductor Christopher Warren-Green. Not quite as old is the English Chamber Orchestra, of which I was privileged to be a member during the 1970s-1980s. It was originally the Goldsbrough Orchestra, founded in 1948, and changed its name to the English Chamber Orchestra in 1960 when it was bought by the viola player/ entrepreneur Quintin Ballardie.

[edashtav]

To illustrate that Chamber Orchestras lived on through Victorian times in towns over the hills and far away, here's my transcription of an advertisement placed in the Stamford Mercury during December, 1857.


MR BUCK begs to announce that his Second Subscription GRAND CONCERT will be given the Corn Exchange, Boston, on Wednesday Evening, December 16th, 1857, the following talented Artistes:— Soloists: the Misses BROUGHAM, The popular Duet Singers from the Nobility's Concerts, Hanover Rooms,& etc.
Instrumentalists: Mr. H. NICHOLSON'S CHAMBER ORCHESTRA, Consisting of the following eminent Artistes:—Violin and Concertina, Mr. Henry Farmer, the popular composer; Horn, Mr. Forster, late Duke of Rutland's Band ; Clarionet, Mr.Adcock, ditto; Cornet, Mr.J.A. Smith, ditto; Violoncello, Mr.T.L-Selby (Chamber Orchestra); Contra Basso, Mr. V.Nicholson, Duke of Rutland's Band; Pianoforte M. Praeger. from the Conservatoire of Leipzig ; Euphonium, Mr. Wesley; Flute, Mr. Henry Nicholson.

How many 'leaders of the band' double up on the Concertina in the 21st century?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"Mr Henry Farmer" - I presume the same chap who compiled that formidable book of scales for the violin. (Every major & minor scale, and in octaves, thirds, and sixths - as my Violin teacher used to say - "if you can play everything in that book, you can play anything on the violin").