Berlioz - The Ultimate Romantic?

[verismissimo]

Indeed - and its start dates vary according to which art form you're discussing. I remember attending a superb series of illustrated lectures in the Ashmolean in 1968 or 9 by Francis Haskell on 19thC French painting, in which he took as his starting date for Romanticism the year 1800, and Jacques-Louis David's painting of Napoleon Crossing the Alps (in fact painted 1801-5, but the crossing was in 1800 ), finally abandoning his earlier classical subjects such as the Oath of the Horatii. Of course as we now know from Adam Zamoyski's new book Napoleon - the Man behind the Myth - Napoleon really crossed the Alps om a mule, wearing oilskins

Yes I know the Death of Marat was painted in 1793, so there was some overlap......but, arguably, music was late to the Romanticism party.

That's the spirit. A whole series of lectures on buckets. :)

[Richard Tarleton]

That's the spirit. A whole series of lectures on buckets. :)

Sorry, you'll have to explain

[Barbirollians]

I have rather more difficulty with the term ultimate rather than romantic. Arguably, he could be said to be the first rather than the ultimate romantic composer.

[french frank]

I have rather more difficulty with the term ultimate rather than romantic. Arguably, he could be said to be the first rather than the ultimate romantic composer.

'Ultimate' in the sense of 'ne plus ultra' rather than the last in a line?

[Serial_Apologist]

I have rather more difficulty with the term ultimate rather than romantic. Arguably, he could be said to be the first rather than the ultimate romantic composer.

There is little of the chromatic advance that characterises other Romantic composers of Berlioz's generation - Chopin, Liszt, Schumann, even Rossini - notwithstanding extraordinary advances in orchestral colouration the harmonic language, even in much of the "Symphonie fantastique" remains, like Mendelssohn's, Beethovenian, and this tended I think to harden in later years. Perhaps Berlioz was more the Romantic in the themes he was inspired by than by new ways of expressing subjectivity musically.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There is little of the chromatic advance that characterises other Romantic composers of Berlioz's generation - Chopin, Liszt, Schumann, even Rossini - notwithstanding extraordinary advances in orchestral colouration the harmonic language, even in much of the "Symphonie fantastique" remains, like Mendelssohn's, Beethovenian, and this tended I think to harden in later years. Perhaps Berlioz was more the Romantic in the themes he was inspired by than by new ways of expressing subjectivity musically.

I think that this suggestion hold right up to the moment you listen to Berlioz's Music, S_A. Just the very opening of the Symphonie Fantastique sends it scuttling to the nearest waste paper bin, and then you add the Love Scene (and so, so muich else) from Romeo et Juliette (and the equivalent from Les Troyens), the Damnation of Faust, the opening of Harold ... and it rather wishes it hadn't spoken.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Here's Lennie on R&J:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsJ7_toPNVs

[Darkbloom]

One thing, for me, that sets Berlioz apart from other Romantics is his use of tunes. There's plenty of melody there but 'big tunes' come across as ironic (Mephistopheles' 'Voici des Roses') or deliberately banal like the Trojan March. His music seems inherently unstable and doesn't allow for the kind of theatrical gesture you get from other composers. Compare his treatment of R and J with Tchaikovsky and Berlioz refuses to be pinned down to any sort of conventional expression in the love scene. But the tune he gives Friar Laurence at the end sounds - at least to me - consciously hollow and pompous.

[David-G]

Berlioz was certainly not the first Romantic. Mehul, Cherubini, Spontini, Weber, all preceded him. Of course none of this is clear-cut. Much of Les Troyens, Berlioz's greatest work, contains a lot of Classicism.

[David-G]

Can I interrupt the discussion to ask a different but related question. Berlioz is one of my very favourite composers. But I was away for the whole weekend, and so have not yet listened to any of these broadcasts. Can anyone direct me towards any of the Berlioz programmes over the weekend which they regard as particularly fine, and which I ought to catch up with the iplayer?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

One thing, for me, that sets Berlioz apart from other Romantics is his use of tunes. There's plenty of melody there but 'big tunes' come across as ironic (Mephistopheles' 'Voici des Roses') or deliberately banal like the Trojan March. His music seems inherently unstable and doesn't allow for the kind of theatrical gesture you get from other composers. Compare his treatment of R and J with Tchaikovsky and Berlioz refuses to be pinned down to any sort of conventional expression in the love scene. But the tune he gives Friar Laurence at the end sounds - at least to me - consciously hollow and pompous.

I think that you've hit on a key factor in Berlioz's Music - the keen sense of irony that few other composers of his time shared, and the dramatic way that this creates tension and momentum in his work. Whilst many another composers are quite happy to expose their own feelings in public, and/or take themselves far too seriously, Berlioz projects his experiences at one remove, through other characters - and is simultaneously aware both of the profundity of the situations and experiences he's dealing with, but also their absurdity, too. So, he gives us that fantastic sweep and passion of the R&J love scene, with its continuous shiftings of key, and chromatic caressings - but juxtaposed with the diatonic "mundanities" (bad word - the Music isn't "mundane", but it represents it) of the revellers' Music. I love this ("purely" Musical) contrast and conflict of materials, and Berlioz's magnificent sense of timing.

At risk of presuming upon others' responses to the Music, I wonder if many people prefer to "wallow" in the more "single-minded" representations of "emotion" that other composers offer, and that Berlioz's tugs in different directions are what make them believe that his work is "flawed"?


(And this week's prize for the most frequent use of the cautionary inverted commas goes to ... )

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Can I interrupt the discussion to ask a different but related question. Berlioz is one of my very favourite composers. But I was away for the whole weekend, and so have not yet listened to any of these broadcasts. Can anyone direct me towards any of the Berlioz programmes over the weekend which they regard as particularly fine, and which I ought to catch up with the iplayer?

I, for one, can't help, David-G, sorry: as with all "prolonged exposure"-type 'thons, there were so many goodies on offer, I ended up not listening to any of the programmes as they were broadcast. I intend to make individual selections over the next few weeks.

[Richard Barrett]

notwithstanding extraordinary advances in orchestral colouration the harmonic language, even in much of the "Symphonie fantastique" remains, like Mendelssohn's, Beethovenian, and this tended I think to harden in later years

... which just goes to show that harmony isn't everything! Berlioz's subject matter and his way of deploying it was surely Romantic par excellence, and his instrument was the orchestra in the same way as Liszt's was the piano - both advanced the technique and expressive range of their instrument in many ways, although to my mind Berlioz's music is far more memorable than Liszt's. Further evidence for how extreme a Romantic Berlioz was may be found throughout his memoirs.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Clearly a romantic - how many classical composers wrote no chamber and piano music?
QED

[Bryn]

Clearly a romantic - how many classical composers wrote no chamber and piano music?
QED

From https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Works-H.../dp/B01EMLR6NQ :

Hector Berlioz (1803-1869) has been called the father of modern orchestration and he composed very little for the piano. In fact, the three pieces included in this collection comprise his complete solo keyboard works. 1. Rustic Serenade (Rustic Serenade to the Virgin), 1845. 2. Hymne ( Hymne for the Elevation), 1845. 3. Toccata, 1845.

Then there's the 2 pianos used in early performances (and by Immerseel) of SF.