Berlioz - The Ultimate Romantic?

[NatBalance]

What is this title all about? The ultimate romantic? I've never thought of Berlioz's music as being romantic, even though he did compose in the romantic period. I've been listening to little bits over the weekend and kept on hearing this 'ultimate romantic' phrase. I have not heard anything that I would class as deserving such an accolade. Surely Rachmaninov, Chopin, and Tchaikovski are much more qualified for that role? What am I missing here?

Rich
PS. Is this the right forum for this subject?

[Bryn]

What is this title all about? The ultimate romantic? I've never thought of Berlioz's music as being romantic, even though he did compose in the romantic period. I've been listening to little bits over the weekend and kept on hearing this 'ultimate romantic' phrase. I have not heard anything that I would class as deserving such an accolade. Surely Rachmaninov, Chopin, and Tchaikovski are much more qualified for that role? What am I missing here?

Rich
PS. Is this the right forum for this subject?

Berlioz is widely regarded as having initiated the Romantic genre of 'classical' music. A quick Internet search for "Berlioz" and "romanticism" will offer confirmation of this view.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Is this the right forum for this subject?

I've moved it to "Talking About Music".

I would be interested to know why you don't consider Berlioz's Music to be "Romantic" (the capital "r" is important). Would a Classical composer have imagined writing a Symphony depicting opium-induced hallucinations and ending with a witches' orgy in Hell?

[vinteuil]

Would a Classical composer have imagined writing a Symphony depicting opium-induced hallucinations and ending with a witches' orgy in Hell?

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... a baroque composer might.




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[Richard Tarleton]

Berlioz epitomised this -



- a recurring theme in early 19thC Romantic art - the hero/protagonist alone, against the odds (Harold in Italy, see the eponymous poem)....Manfred on the Jungfrau, Winterreise, etc.....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... a baroque composer might.

"Berlioz - The Ultimate Baroque"?

[Maclintick]

I've moved it to "Talking About Music".

I would be interested to know why you don't consider Berlioz's Music to be "Romantic" (the capital "r" is important). Would a Classical composer have imagined writing a Symphony depicting opium-induced hallucinations and ending with a witches' orgy in Hell?

If one accepts the definition of the Romantic aesthetic as individualistic (narcissistic?) & preoccupied with inner states of consciousness, the Wordsworthian "spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings", & also characterised by a predilection for the picturesque, then I think HB qualifies in spades..

[gurnemanz]

If one accepts the definition of the Romantic aesthetic as individualistic (narcissistic?) & preoccupied with inner states of consciousness, the Wordsworthian "spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings", & also characterised by a predilection for the picturesque, then I think HB qualifies in spades..

The German Romantics drew inspiration from Byron, Walter Scott and the fake poet Ossian etc, preferring free forms to classical order and restraint. Shakespeare's abandonment of the dramatic unities also appealed to them. Berlioz seems to be very much following that line.

[richardfinegold]

As others have said here, with greater eloquence than I can master, I think the title Ultimate Romantic is pretty apt. Besides the emphasis on individuality, HB was fairly self conscious that he was trying to break with the past and create new forms that would tell a story. Most of his music is programmatic and less abstract than what preceded it. Not satisfied with traditional ways of integrating voice and music, he was trying to create new forms, and this lead to some neither fish nor fowl works as Romeo.
I don’t know if Berlioz was a necessary precursor on the tree of Romanticism that ultimately yielded Liszt, Wagner, Mahler, and like, but he certainly was a kindred spirit

[edashtav]

If one accepts the definition of the Romantic aesthetic as individualistic (narcissistic?) & preoccupied with inner states of consciousness, the Wordsworthian "spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings", & also characterised by a predilection for the picturesque, then I think HB qualifies in spades..

[Maclintick]

The German Romantics drew inspiration from Byron, Walter Scott and the fake poet Ossian etc, preferring free forms to classical order and restraint. Shakespeare's abandonment of the dramatic unities also appealed to them. Berlioz seems to be very much following that line.

Vint's point about Baroque composers (not JSB, obviously) embracing certain romantic, (no capital R, FHG !) characteristics or attitudes in their music is an interesting one, though, if one considers e.g. the operas of Rameau or Telemann's Don Quichotte -- Cervantes' protagonist the original self-obsessed & definitely self-deluded Romantic, perhaps -- & then move forward to Bruckner, a Romantic whose music is suffused with post-Wagnerian chromaticism, & who yet displays a classical preoccupation with formal balance, & is quite objective in his means of achieving it..

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes - vinty's post made me think immediately of Tartini (the idea of the supernatural dream a connection with Berlioz's witches' sabbath) - which I think would definitely be a Romantic fascination, rather than a romantic one?

[verismissimo]

I always draw back from disputes as to which bucket to put composers (artists, writers, philosophers, politicians …) into, although I can see that it makes it easier to fit each individual into a stereotype.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I always draw back from disputes as to which bucket to put composers (artists, writers, philosophers, politicians …) into, although I can see that it makes it easier to fit each individual into a stereotype.

It can be awkward - and such works as L'Enfance du Christ don't fit as comfortably into this particular "bucket" as some of the earlier works cited on this Thread. I think that "Romanticism" can be better thought of more as an "attitude" than a specific "period", too.

[Richard Tarleton]

It can be awkward - and such works as L'Enfance du Christ don't fit as comfortably into this particular "bucket" as some of the earlier works cited on this Thread. I think that "Romanticism" can be better thought of more as an "attitude" than a specific "period", too.

Indeed - and its start dates vary according to which art form you're discussing. I remember attending a superb series of illustrated lectures in the Ashmolean in 1968 or 9 by Francis Haskell on 19thC French painting, in which he took as his starting date for Romanticism the year 1800, and Jacques-Louis David's painting of Napoleon Crossing the Alps (in fact painted 1801-5, but the crossing was in 1800 ), finally abandoning his earlier classical subjects such as the Oath of the Horatii. Of course as we now know from Adam Zamoyski's new book Napoleon - the Man behind the Myth - Napoleon really crossed the Alps om a mule, wearing oilskins

Yes I know the Death of Marat was painted in 1793, so there was some overlap......but, arguably, music was late to the Romanticism party.