Recorders

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I saw Ms Petri perform Malcolm Arnold's Recorder Concerto in the Brighton Dome back in the early '90s - the composer was present, and at the end he stood up to glare at the audience.


(And I haven't been able to stop thinking about the Forum in 100 years time with arguments from contributors on a BaL Thread devoted to Barrett's negatives about which type of gaffer tape was expected by the composer for the recorder part! )

[Dave2002]

(And I haven't been able to stop thinking about the Forum in 100 years time with arguments from contributors on a BaL Thread devoted to Barrett's negatives about which type of gaffer tape was expected by the composer for the recorder part! )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bocal

Not quite sure where the leak was. I was going to suggest Araldite, but it may "simply" have been in the junction between the end of the bocal and the instrument. Maybe PTFE tape would have worked!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Certainly. She was still playing a year or two back - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asequbI8tic

She did a concert last Thursday.

[Richard Barrett]

Not quite sure where the leak was. I was going to suggest Araldite, but it may "simply" have been in the junction between the end of the bocal and the instrument. Maybe PTFE tape would have worked!

The buckle was in fact bocaled in the middle so it just needed a few turns of gaffer around it to keep it sealed!

[Dave2002]

She did a concert last Thursday.

She probably plays a wide range of instruments. Does she tend to play the more modern ones which allegedly have extended range and better high notes? I can’t tell from looking at the YouTube videos. Probably she’s so good she can play anything, but it could be helpful to know what instruments players are using when they make recordings and videos.

[Howdenite]

She played an Eagle (by Adriana Breukink) and a Von Huene in a recent interview with Sarah Jeffery/Team Recorder. I'm sure she has a wide range of instruments. The Eagle is an extended range/volume recorder; the Von Huene a more traditional baroque style (they played a bit of the Telemann Op 2 duos together on matched Von Huenes that belong to Michala).

[Dave2002]

Anyone mentioned Aulos? They're plastic and not for the cognoscenti, but much better than some earlier makes. We have sets of tenor, treble, descant and one sopranino which various Ardcarps pick up and play. (No bass recorder, sadly.) I'm the worst...Mrs A is something of a wizard.

I came across this page, which is useful to differentiate between different models from Aulos - http://www.saundersrecorders.com/rec3.htm#sopran

The website http://www.saundersrecorders.com was mentioned in msg 2. I have read that the Aulos Symphony models are based on the "modern" recorders, while the Haka models are probably based on a design from around 1670-1700 - http://www.buyrecorders.com/richard_haka.htm - by Richard Haka. Also I note that I might have a CD of Frans Bruggen playing one in the box set of performances - CD 4 - I'll have to see if I can find that.

You can hear an original Haka on Frans Bruggen Edition Vol. 4 (Early Baroque Recorder Music - Teldec 4509-97466-2) Track 4 (Van Eyck)

It is surprising to me that presumably rather small differences in dimensions may have a significant effect on the tuning and sound of such instruments - reportedly.

[Dave2002]

Lower pitched recorders

Now I have discovered that almost all plastic recorders are tuned to A=440+/-2. Many are specified at A=442.

There is one which is tuned to A=415 (approx?) - from Zen-On. This is mentioned in Sarah Jeffery's review of plastic recorders - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofSYOBn2HWc

There are some details of the Zen-On Bressan treble model here - https://www.zen-on.co.jp/pdf/NEW_BRESSAN_English.pdf.
In that article there is mention that the original Bressan models were actually tuned to A=410 Hz.

The article about the Bressan is quite interesting as it explains about the shape of the windway, and also about the shape of the holes. The shape of the windway can affect the resistance the player feels when playing, as well as have other effects. Many plastic recorders (most/all?) have cylindrical holes which go in perpendicular to the axis of the instrument. Some wooden ones have tapered holes, which do not necessarily go in perpendicularly to the axis. This affects the tuning and the tone.

This may be the only plastic model of any kind currently available at this lower pitch. https://www.amazon.co.uk/FLAUTA-DULC...SIN=B01IIA9ZS6

It seems odd that there are so many models of recorder to choose from, and also that there are seemingly people willing to pay very high prices for more exotic models. Also, is there more interest in recorder playing in some countries than others?

[Richard Barrett]

Now I have discovered that almost all plastic recorders are tuned to A=440+/-2. Many are specified at A=442

Well yes - playing at A=415 or 392 or other pre-standardisation pitches is rather a specialist occupation.

[Dave2002]

Well yes - playing at A=415 or 392 or other pre-standardisation pitches is rather a specialist occupation.

Indeed, but some people may want to play music from periods when such pitching was more likely. Small adjustments in pitch can be done by good players without too much difficulty I think - and also adjustments in tuning. This is a problem for anyone trying to evaluate instruments based on watching and listening to other players. Sarah Jefferys comments on that in some of her videos, and watching and listening to her playing she seems to be able to make most of them sound in tune - only in extreme cases does this fail. However, someone who is unable to adjust the tuning while playing would find some instruments much harder to keep in tune than others. This means that someone who has some experience of playing may compensate for tuning errors, and might accommodate them, or merely become slightly irritated. Someone who is new to playing might produce some really horrible out of tune effects. This would sound worse when playing with others, too.

Playing at A=415 can be achieved on some recorders by pulling out the head joint a bit. This corresponds to about a semitone lower pitch - see the chart on this page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies

Playing at A = 392 - a whole tone lower would be challenging, though again with an instrument tuned to A = 415 should be possible by pulling the joints apart a bit. On the other hand, one could simply transpose down a semitone or tone, respectively.

If the joints are pulled out too far, different notes result - depending on the instrument. On a wooden Hohner descant I own, pulling the head joint out about 8-9 mm pulls the pitch of an A down to A flat, but on a plastic Aulos the A shifts down a fourth to E. It is possible to get completely different notes. A 1 to 2 mm extension on the Aulos reduces the pitch and also weakens the tone considerably. Adjusting the pitches by changing the relative positions of the joints will also affect the overall tuning - though a good player will probably, in most cases, be able to compensate - as long as the discrepancies are not too large.

Having noticed this peculiarity, I should check out the effects of similar adjustments on other instruments. On a Moeck wooden treble, the pitch simply goes down - no spectacular change in notes.

Maybe most serious recorder players know this kind of stuff already. I didn't until just a few minutes ago, but then I'm not a serious recorder player

[oddoneout]

On the other hand, one could simply transpose down a semitone or tone, respectively.

At my level 'simply' is not the word...Using a different instrument - now that is simple.

[Constantbee]

My latest recorders, soprano and alto, come from the new Yamaha ecodear (trademark) range. The problem with plastic recorders of any brand is that they’re ultimately destined for landfill. Ecodear is a partially plant-based polyester. Unlike conventional polyester which is made from 100% crude oil, in ecodear the ethylene glycol needed in the polymerization is made from molasses, produced during sugar refining. The manufacturers claim it’s fully recyclable, unlike polyester. I’m not qualified to comment, only time will tell. I do know that they perform very well, giving a clear, bright tone, and are comfortable to play. A few grams heavier than the older Yamaha plastic version the extra density adds value.

The materials the instruments are made out of probably matters less than how they are played imho, unless you are a professional artist, or a serious student. In consorts and groups you tend to hear a better result if everybody plays the same type, so a consort of Yamaha plastic recorders will probably sound better than a mixed consort of several different materials.

A couple of years ago I bought a Mollenhauer European boxwood soprano at a good price from Germany but had to send it back because the foot joint was loose. It’s a 3 part instrument, you see. Very disappointing, doubly so because I lost money on the exchange rate.

The key to starting to play the recorder well is to forget what you were taught at primary school. Sound production is all in the articulation which is very more complex than we were first led to believe.

[Dave2002]

My latest recorders, soprano and alto, come from the new Yamaha ecodear (trademark) range. The problem with plastic recorders of any brand is that they’re ultimately destined for landfill. Ecodear is a partially plant-based polyester. Unlike conventional polyester which is made from 100% crude oil, in ecodear the ethylene glycol needed in the polymerization is made from molasses, produced during sugar refining. The manufacturers claim it’s fully recyclable, unlike polyester. I’m not qualified to comment, only time will tell. I do know that they perform very well, giving a clear, bright tone, and are comfortable to play. A few grams heavier than the older Yamaha plastic version the extra density adds value.

I saw this reviewed in the video by Sarah J earlier about choosing a plastic recorder. Sounds like a good idea, though the idea of a bio degradable recorder conjures up images of a consort disintegrating in "real time" during a performance!

That could sort out the players who have spit or condensation problems rather quickly.

Also - do some recorders "go off" if exposed to sunlight? Or indeed just with time? I think some of my Aulos models have more yellowy bits than they may have had when they were bought, though sunlight and heat might be expected to cause other effects - sunlight would (perhaps) lighten colours.

I believe my earliest exposure to recorders might have been to a bakelite one - probably a Schott. New plastic ones seem mostly to be ABS - whatever that is.

Sorry that the Mollenhauer didn't work for you. I've not tried one, so don't know, but some of the people I'm playing with have one. They do seem to be one of the most popular/better ranges out there.

Re plastic recorders going to landfill - some will, some will probably just be burnt. In the overall scale of things it's probably a lot less important than a lot of the other stuff which gets made then dumped.

[Richard Barrett]

Indeed, but some people may want to play music from periods when such pitching was more likely.

Yes, and generally they play these at A440 unless they're professionals. Transposing music by a semitone on the recorder is extremely difficult!

[Dave2002]

Yes, and generally they play these at A440 unless they're professionals. Transposing music by a semitone on the recorder is extremely difficult!

Mmmm. Yes I'd agree with that.

Better to go down a whole tone I guess. That shouldn't be too much of a problem, and some people might even be able to do it "on the fly". The problem would then be with the bottom notes - D would go to C on a descant, G to F on a treble, which are quite often weak notes on some instruments - depending also on the player, and the lowest notes i.e C and F would have to (a) disappear, be omitted , or (b) be replaced by other notes which could "work" in some sense - maybe up an octave or a fifth etc. Given that most people probably want to stick with music written for A approx = 440, or simply play earlier music at higher pitch, then there's no real issue - except for professionals and authenticists as you mention.

Incidentally, why are some recorders specified for A=442 which is hardly significantly different from A=440? Is it to allow for the adjustments by slight lengthening mentioned earlier, or for some other reason?

Presumably in the past it might have been difficult to tune to within +/- 1 Hz, but now with technology instrument makers can get this sort of thing pretty accurate. Any variation is much more likely to come from the player.