Recorders

[Dave2002]

Towards the end of last year I joined a recorder group. Somewhat to my surprise, I discovered I can still play just about enough to play new pieces with the others including sight reading, though sometimes I notice I switch between the fingerings for the treble and soprano for a bar or two, until I put myself right. I also find some passages, particularly those which use notes which use the "half" holes at the bottom of the instruments rather hard, and trying to play those at speed causes problems.

While I don't think that changing instruments will make a lot of difference, I do wonder whether "investing" in new ones will give any benefits, either to the sound or the playability. Currently I have a number of plastic models descant, treble, sopranino - by Yamaha and Aulos, and a Moeck wooden treble. I have never played tenor and/or bass - and even now I'm not sure I want to try those, but maybe ....

Cheap descant recorders are, well, cheap - many plastic ones can be obtained for under £20. I don't know how much difference there is between them all. The cost rises quite a bit for trebles, and then going on to tenors and basses puts costs up a lot. I found a set by Bellisima (plastic) for under £300 - but of course there's no guarantee that any of those would be any good. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00FSMYP...detail_5?psc=1

It's possible to pay a lot for a single wooden recorder - such as this Yamaha soprano wooden recorder for £299 - https://www.amazon.co.uk/YAMAHA-reco...=wood+recorder

I used to live just outside a town with a good music shop, and could get advice and even try instruments out, but now I don't, and also many music shops appear to have closed down.

I think there are benefits to wooden recorders, but many of the plastic ones seem adequate to me. Any comments re all this? What are the differences between models described as "student" or "beginner" - at least for plastic models the engineering - if any good - should surely be accurate enough, though I think the material used makes a difference to condensation. Also, soft wood instruments may suffer wear round the holes, making them hard or impossible to play. Perhaps some plastic models are also made of less durable materials.

Experimenting with cheap descants is probably not going to break the bank, but considering (possibly) "better" models in the treble - down to bass ranges could be really expensive.

[oddoneout]

This business is winding down but there is plenty of useful information which oyu might find useful/interesting.

http://www.saundersrecorders.com/

More info here https://www.thomann.de/gb/search_dir...s=07bc45_13444
(I haven't used either company so can't comment about how good they are for actual purchases)
For a couple of years now I have been playing monthly with three(if we're lucky) others, and am in the process of trying to find a new descant recorder. I bought an inexpensive but decent quality plastic one, as I felt my wooden one might be on the way out,however I find it unsatisfactory, confirming my experiences from schooldays when Dolmetsch plastic recorders were very popular and considered to be preferable/superior to the Schott and Adler ones, but I just couldn't get on with them.
Part of the difficulty now is that my fingers are affected by arthritis, and I find the sharp edges of the plastic instrument holes not only uncomfortable but also needing more accuracy in placement in order to shut off completely. The thumbhole of my ancient Adler is also way more forgiving and easy to use for the high notes, but is showing signs of wear - not surprising after more than 50 years - (not continuous use I hasten to add) hence the need to find a replacement.
The Early Music Shop may be able to offer further advice, https://earlymusicshop.com, they seem to have a wide range in terms of brands, price, materials.
I'm leaning towards a basic wooden Moeck, as I like the sound(was able to borrow one for a while), and I can't justify spending too much on something I may not be able to play for very much longer.

[Richard Barrett]

I've owned quite a few recorders over the years. What I have at the moment is a Moeck Rottenburgh descant and a Küng treble (or soprano and alto respectively as they're termed by the Germanic tribes) which I bought on eBay for about £100 each, I can't remember the exact amount. I find wooden recorders physically much more pleasant to play than plastic ones, quite apart from their sound being greatly preferable. A good quality second hand instrument in good condition isn't going to be so much more expensive than a cheap new one, and the difference in the all round playing experience is immense.

[Dave2002]

Turns out my treble is a Moeck Rottenburgh (wood) but the other models I have are either Aulos or Yamaha in plastic. I can understand that the wooden ones "should" be better, though I think sometimes that the plastic ones can be more reliable if playing for a long while. I probably need to take more care of the Moeck, but I am now in the market for a decent wooden descant.

I'll look into the Küng range, as well as others - http://www.kueng-blockfloeten.ch/cms...order/superio/

At amazon some of the Küng models do seem seriously expensive - are they really that good that the money spent is worth it?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kung-Soprano-Recorder/s?page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3AKung%20Soprano%20Recorder

Mollenhauer also seem to have some interesting instruments - https://www.mollenhauer.com/en/service/downloads

and I could always revisit Moeck - https://www.moeck.com/en/recorders.html

Thanks for the information.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Well, I bought a Mollenhauer Modern Treble Recorder a few years ago, from the Early Music Shop in Saltaire. It cost the princely sum of £834 - more than any of the others, but being redesigned to give the lowest notes greater strength and stability, I considered it to be worth it. However, I also bought a £30 Yamaha plastic treble while I was there, and that’s pretty good too!

[Dave2002]

This page about the types of wood which can be used to make recorders is quite interesting - https://www.vonhuene.com/t-recorderwood.aspx

Here is another interesting page about recorder makers - http://www.recorderhomepage.net/inst...porary-makers/

Here is a page about earlier recorder makers - http://www.recorderhomepage.net/data...t.php?pageno=1
Some are truly historic, whereas other only traded for a short while, and some stopped making instruments not very long ago.

Here is a page about Dolmetsch recorders - https://www.dolmetsch.com/ourrecorders.htm
They appear to be pitched based on A=440 - a tad lower than some other modern makers. Their low pitch models are based on A=415 - again very slightly lower than some others.

[Dave2002]

Thomann have a wide range of recorders - https://www.thomann.de/gb/recorders.html - and indeed other kit including microphones and electronics. Their tenor and bass instruments are very cheap, relatively. However reviews suggest that not everyone will be satisfied, and that “you get what you pay for”. However, despite that comment, for anyone who wants to try tenor and/or bass instruments, these do seem amongst the cheapest options for anyone wanting a new instrument. Looking at the volume of sales suggests that many people are more or less satisfied with these cheapish instruments, though some are very disappointed with the finish and overall quality.

There are some cheap offerings of used instruments on eBay - which may be better buys for those who want to try. I’m not sure about buying a second hand recorder - are there any health hazards?

[Howdenite]

I took up recorder playing about 6 years ago when I retired. It is wonderful to be able to make music again! I had a wooden student soprano to start with, and I never got on with plastic recorders, so I can't really tell you much about those. I know that some of the better/more expensive ones have a good reputation, but they feel odd to me and don't sound the way I want them to. I know lots of people are quite happy with them, though.

Re cheaper vs more expensive recorders, cheaper recorders often have tuning problems. The standard fingerings on decent recorders, including the ones classed as 'student recorders', are usually fine, but alternate fingerings which are useful for trills and fast passage work can be dodgy. This is especially true for larger recorders (tenor, bass, etc).

I have upgraded most of my recorders as I have gone along. I have also mostly owned used recorders, so have been able to sell them for close to what I paid for them. The difference in price between new wooden recorders and used ones is significant! I have upgraded when I needed to use fingerings that weren't in tune, or when I wanted to play music that was just too difficult on the cheaper recorder, usually when high notes were too hard to reach in fast passages. Working on notes that are hard to play is great practice, but at some point, I just want to play my music rather than struggle with particularly weak notes. These can vary even between different recorders of the same make and model, so playing a recorder before buying is important if it is possible. I haven't had any health problems with used recorders! But none of the ones I've bought have been particularly grubby.

It is possible to try recorders at the Early Music Shops (both London and Saltaire). Another great place to see and try loads of recorders is the London International Festival of Early Music at Greenwich every year in November if you can get there. At any of these, you can compare lots in one go, and the EMS shops are also a good used source. It is also possible to get one of their used recorders sent to you to try for a couple of weeks for £10 plus return postage if you choose not to buy the recorder. I have been doing this as I find it takes more than a few minutes in the shop to really see if the recorder is for me. Note that wooden recorders do need to be played in, so you can't just pick them up and play for hours to see how you like them! Still, I can play enough to know for sure I want to buy.

One other suggestion is to listen to Sarah Jeffreys Team Recorder podcasts. She has done some on buying both wooden and plastic recorders. I don't know if these links will work, but this is one on buying wooden recorders https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4KDNEW56TY and this on plastic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofSYOBn2HWc.

Sorry this is so long but I hope it is helpful.

[Dave2002]

Indeed it is helpful.

If you want really expensive recorders, then look at these ones - https://www.thomann.de/gb/paetzold_b...recorders.html

Sarah Jeffreys here - https://www.youtube.com/user/SarahBlokfluit

I found this Youtube by Sarah Jeffreys quite interesting - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTvSRe-7D4I&t=20s

[Richard Barrett]

Well, I bought a Mollenhauer Modern Treble Recorder a few years ago, from the Early Music Shop in Saltaire. It cost the princely sum of £834 - more than any of the others, but being redesigned to give the lowest notes greater strength and stability, I considered it to be worth it. However, I also bought a £30 Yamaha plastic treble while I was there, and that’s pretty good too!

Mollenhauer is certainly the favoured manufacturer among professional modern-music-playing players of my acquaintance precisely for the reason you mention, together with the square-cross-section Paetzold instruments from the bass recorder downwards.

[ardcarp]

Anyone mentioned Aulos? They're plastic and not for the cognoscenti, but much better than some earlier makes. We have sets of tenor, treble, descant and one sopranino which various Ardcarps pick up and play. (No bass recorder, sadly.) I'm the worst...Mrs A is something of a wizard.

[Richard Barrett]

Anyone mentioned Aulos? They're plastic and not for the cognoscenti, but much better than some earlier makes. We have sets of tenor, treble, descant and one sopranino which various Ardcarps pick up and play. (No bass recorder, sadly.) I'm the worst...Mrs A is something of a wizard.

Aulos has been mentioned... I used to have a bass of theirs which I bought in a secondhand shop, there was a leak in the bocal which was fixed using gaffer tape and it was played by clarinettist Carl Rosman in numerous performances and a CD recording of an ensemble work in which it was used as a doubling instrument. Carl subsequently replaced it with a better one, I'm not sure what happened to the original.

[Dave2002]

Mollenhauer is certainly the favoured manufacturer among professional modern-music-playing players of my acquaintance precisely for the reason you mention, together with the square-cross-section Paetzold instruments from the bass recorder downwards.

It does seem that the modern recorders and the Paetzolds are, however, somewhat different beasts from ones modelled on older designs. That's not a problem for modern music, but arguably some of the older designs might work better with music which is from the period when the recorders were more prevalent. I suppose it would depend on how much of a compromise is to be made - if tuning and reliability as well as tone are all relatively poor with older designs, then using more modern designs which may fix some of the issues would seem to make sense.

[ardcarp]

Anyone remember Michala Petri? She came to fame at quite a young age (late 1960s?) making a big impression with her musicality and virtuosity.

One of my favourite pieces of Bach with blockflöten (not MP playing!) is the early cantata No. 106, Gottes Zeit. This early-ish recording by Gönnenwein is sort of pre-HIPP, but what a glorious sound the two recorders make...at a guess Baroque copies with a wide bore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txb5nkZGxD8

[Dave2002]

Anyone remember Michala Petri? She came to fame at quite a young age (late 1960s?) making a big impression with her musicality and virtuosity.

Certainly. She was still playing a year or two back - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asequbI8tic