Recorders

[Dave2002]

Can't afford a bass recorder ...

It's possible to simulate the sound of a bass recorder with a bit of effort. This is probably not as much fun as having a real one, but it's definitely cheaper. It does require a microphone, though.

This is potentially useful if one is trying to practice with a group, and no bass recorder is available. It only works for pre-recorded bass parts, though.

The way to do it is to play the bass part on a treble recorder and record the part at the same time. This requires care to get reasonably good results.

Then import the recording into Audacity, select the whole of the recording, and then use the pitch change effect to lower the pitch by an octave - that's 12 semitones in the drop down menu. Somewhat surprisingly this works quite well, and the results do sound somewhat like a bass (basset) recorder. As a technique for getting more realistic sounds for individual parts this is better than trying to use Midi sounds with an electronic keyboard.

The point of this is that the treble recorder should have roughly the same fingering as the bass (basset) recorder. [Most notes are the same, but a few might be slightly different...]

It may be possible to use other tools than Audacity - perhaps Reaper - to get the octave pitch reduction.

It should similarly be possible to simulate the sound of a tenor recorder using a descant recorder.

I haven't tried for contra bass, or sub-contra bass effects - yet!

[Dave2002]

Maybe this update should go in the techhie section, but OTOH it's perhaps best to keep the recorder theme going in the main sections.
I have now tried the contra and sub-contra techniques, and also tried to go higher rather than lower.

As a first approximation these do work, and it is possible to simulate a sub-contra bass going flat out by playing on a descant recorder, and then dropping down by an appropriate pitch amount. However, too much messing around with pitch shifting does introduce some very audible artefacts. This is probably exacerbated by using compressed audio on the results, and then deciding to have just one more go at shifting on the compressed audio.

What I haven't really figured out is how the pitch shifting actually works. A linear frequency shift can be achieved by several methods I think, including heterodyning. A linear frequency shift is not what is required though - as frequency components have to maintain their relative relationships. My suspicion is that it's not strictly possible to do accurately, but that approximate methods can be used to give a modestly satisfactory result. I'd be delighted if someone could show that it is possible to do such a frequency shift accurately without simply altering the speed of the playback, and thus lengthening the duration of all samples for a downwards pitch shift.

[Richard Barrett]

I'd be delighted if someone could show that it is possible to do such a frequency shift accurately without simply altering the speed of the playback, and thus lengthening the duration of all samples for a downwards pitch shift.

Have you tried Google? The technique is called phase vocoding, well known to anyone who's had any involvement with electronic music since the 1980s and the increased accessibility of digital signal processing in general. It involves an analysis stage, in which the original signal is represented as a function of frequency distribution over time, followed by a resynthesis stage, which can involve multiplying all the frequencies by a certain factor so as to change the pitch, or stretching/compressing in time, or both. All DAWs have more or less sophisticated algorithms for doing these things. But there's an enormous amount of online literature concerning the theory and practice of such techniques.

[Dave2002]

Thanks. That’s very helpful, and makes a lot of sense. Doing the pitch shift is relatively easy but maintaining the envelope yet keeping the overall timing would seem to be hard. I just didn’t know what search terms to use. Vocoders have been used in telephony - probably still are for some applications - to achieve very high effective compression rates for speech encoding.

This article is helpful - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_vocoder

There are indeed boundary effects, but it seems that for some practical purposes the results are good enough.

[Dave2002]

Flutter tonguing

I'm struggling to cope with flutter tonguing on recorders. Not that it's a useful technique for most pieces, but there are some which require flutter tonguing. I went looking for more information, but found more details about flutes than recorders.

I thought I knew how to do this on flutes - but it seems there are two methods. I use the method where the front of my tongue vibrates - the rolling 'r' method. I didn't know there is another method which is supposedly more like grunting in the throat. I'm less convinced that's a proper method.

I didn't find flutter tonguing on flutes too difficult in the past.

Trying to transfer the rolling 'r' method to recorders just doesn't seem to work for me.

Rolling 'r's flute - https://www.wikihow.com/Flutter-Tongue-on-a-Flute

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVui4mxbU3k

Sarah has a Youtube for recorder - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMp4bG3Co7o

[Dave2002]

Berio "Gesti"

There is flutter tonguing - plus a whole lot of other effects - here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiZYkm2ipkw

See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URikWEZGD3Q

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Flutter tonguing is a problem for many players, especially in England, where the rolling of R’s is not an everyday occurrence. Years of teaching the flute has shown me how widespread the problem is. I would imagine that the problem is rare in Scotland. I know a very good professional flautist who can only flutter-tongue via the “uvula trill”, which is the way the French roll their R’s.
A singing teacher I’ve worked with reckons it’s possible to teach people to roll the letter R by starting with d-d-d-d and accelerating. Maybe?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Try moving the tongue further back, rather than rattling it against the recorder mouthpiece.

[Cockney Sparrow]

This CD of American recorder concertos has recently been issued: mentioned in 'Brief notes' in the new BBC MM (June 2019) that dropped through the letterbox this morning.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8607980--american-recorder-concertos

And there's an interesting concerto by David Bedford on this NMC CD that I have on my shelves:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classica...mpanis#related

As well as Qobuz, both of those can be found on Naxos Music Library (NML) (with PDF booklets). There are quite a few Petri recordings on the OUR record label (which runs to 3 pages on NML). ( NML - #16 et al http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...-library/page2 ).

[Dave2002]

Berio "Gesti"

If you must - https://youtu.be/URikWEZGD3Q

https://youtu.be/YxU9uo9-q_8

https://youtu.be/VYO35N3t1nQ The "original"?

https://youtu.be/rc4-_nBCLGE - I quite like this one - not sure why!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/BERIO-GESTI-Tre-Rec/dp/3702447563

[Dave2002]

Chords on recorders?

More on the preceding post - https://www.reddit.com/r/classicalmu...der_holy_shit/

Next question “Is it possible to play chords on recorders?”. It is possible on flutes and oboes - Heinz Holliger has shown us how on the latter instrument. So - is it possible - without cheating and using a plug-in such as for electric guitar?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes. This is astonishingly annoying (that child should be taken into care!) but also informative:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKF7GFfYn0A

More formal information here:

http://www.recorderhomepage.net/technique/extended-technique/

[Richard Barrett]

Next question “Is it possible to play chords on recorders?”

It's very easy in fact, I'm very surprised you haven't discovered it for yourself already, apart from having encountered it in the modern repertoire. Take a fingering for a low pitch and open one of the left-hand holes, and by experimenting with different degrees of breath pressure you will almost certainly find a multiphonic of some kind, which can then be variously modulated by (sometimes half-)opening other holes and changing the breath pressure. Multiphonics are possible on all woodwind and brass instruments.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It's very easy in fact, I'm very surprised you haven't discovered it for yourself already, apart from having encountered it in the modern repertoire. Take a fingering for a low pitch and open one of the left-hand holes, and by experimenting with different degrees of breath pressure you will almost certainly find a multiphonic of some kind, which can then be variously modulated by (sometimes half-)opening other holes and changing the breath pressure. Multiphonics are possible on all woodwind and brass instruments.

Absolutely right. I was once asked to play in a student work which required chords on the oboe. I was lent this book to prepare for it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Sounds-Woodwind-Bruno-Bartolozzi/dp/019318611X

[Dave2002]

Absolutely right. I was once asked to play in a student work which required chords on the oboe. I was lent this book to prepare for it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Sounds-.../dp/019318611X

Re Richard's point - hasn't everyone discovered that some forms of chords are possible? Possibly subjected to excruciating noises from 6-10 year olds - but I was thinking more in terms of a structured approach, rather than random happenstance.

Thanks for reminding me of the Bartolluzzi book. I remember having it out of the library years ago, and trying some of the fingerings, but not on recorder. Does it include recorders in the latest edition?

Looks as though most of the versions currently available as used copies (Amazon) also come from libraries!