Recorders

[MrGongGong]

A recorder stand isn’t the greatest idea. A flute stand is fine as the bore is cylindrical, so can slide securely on to a piece of dowel of the appropriate diameter. Oboes and flutes have a conical foot-joint, .

I'm not sure that is true ?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm not sure that is true ?

Good grief! Did I actually type that? I meant oboes and clarinets. Duly amended.

How embarrassing.

[Richard Barrett]

All the recorder players I've worked with keep unused instruments on their cases on the floor or on a cloth on a chair. I haven't seen anyone use a recorder stand made of dowel. Obviously it's going to be a bit unstable anyway with bigger instruments that have a bocal.

[MrGongGong]

Good grief! Did I actually type that? I meant oboes and clarinets. Duly amended.

How embarrassing.

If I had 50p for every time I had to explain the difference between a flugelhorn and a trumpet


And the difference between a tambourine and a trampoline?

[Dave2002]

All the recorder players I've worked with keep unused instruments on their cases on the floor or on a cloth on a chair. I haven't seen anyone use a recorder stand made of dowel. Obviously it's going to be a bit unstable anyway with bigger instruments that have a bocal.

Definitely doesn't seem a good idea for larger instruments. Not sure if I'll keep using the stand, though leaving instruments flat has a risk that either they'll fall off a table, or that someone will sit on them.

[Dave2002]

Flight of the Bumble Bee

I thought this was all but impossible, but this player gets pretty close. https://youtu.be/7exKe1emplw

Amazing!

[Dave2002]

Has anyone bought a recorder recently? Or even in the last decade?

Are there any that people particularly like?

I have been buying several over the last few months, and trying to weigh up the advantages, or otherwise, of each.
I have a Moeck wooden treble, which I've had for quite a long while, and some older Aulos plastic ones.

I decided to try the Aulos Haka descant - which is very agile - with top notes relatively easy to get first time, and the treble is also good - though I mostly play the Moeck if I'm playing treble.

I thought I'd try the cheapest (resin) of the Mollenhauer Adri's Dream soprano recorders - which gives a fairly loud sound, and it's very clear - though the top end is trickier. Getting that in wood is more expensive - though I could fancy it - but possibly the Waldorf model is similar - as noted by one reviewer. I recommend that "cheapie" for anyone who wants to try, though the holes are rather large and sometimes it feels as though the fingers are just too close together.

If I wanted a collection I'd "obviously" get a Moeck soprano to match the treble, but I'm not sure I like that enough to go there.
The Thomann.de site is quite helpful for some models, with sound samples - though not for some of the pricier instruments.

I did get a keyless Aulos tenor - and I have tried one with keys. I can't say I'm too thrilled with either of those, and perhaps the tenor recorder is an instrument I'll never really get into. However, I do quite like the sound of the Moeck tenor which one of our group plays.

[oddoneout]

I did get a keyless Aulos tenor - and I have tried one with keys. I can't say I'm too thrilled with either of those, and perhaps the tenor recorder is an instrument I'll never really get into. However, I do quite like the sound of the Moeck tenor which one of our group plays.

My own tenor is a keyless one, and I have used a keyed one. I preferred the keyless as I found it easier to judge whether the hole had been closed properly and adjust if necessary. Also I found the key levers didn't sit very well under my fingers - again not so easy to adjust. Sadly I've had to give up playing tenor as my hands and fingers can no longer cope with either the weight or the stretch.
For various reasons I have yet to get round to buying a new descant but am still minded to get the basic Moeck wooden model. I can't get on with resin ones, and can't justify greater expense for what is relatively infrequent use(monthly meeting with friends, no public outings) and may be a relatively short period of use- depending on how the arthritis develops.

[Howdenite]

I have bought several recorders over the past 5 years, almost all used. I'll start by saying I don't get on with plastic recorders. All of the recorders I have settled on are Moeck recorders, and mostly palisander ones. I have had one Mollenhauer - a Denner tenor in pear wood. It performed well and was amazingly easy to play, but just didn't please me somehow. Most of my recorders are Rottenburgh models, but after trying a number of different tenors, I have settled on a Hotteterre mode. I had a keyless Moeck Rottenburgh in palisander wood recently. I prefer keyless as I am forever struggling with the keys - and they always seem to work a bit differently between recorders (is the # key above or below - how hard/easy is it to switch between them in fast passage work). I preferred the low register on the Rottenburgh, but the Hotteterre is much better in the upper register and makes it possible for me to play the Bach pieces I love to play on a tenor. It is also my only boxwood recorder. I find palisander much brighter and more responsive generally, but my tenor is almost as bright and easy to play. I haven't generally liked the maple recorders (though my bass is maple) as they seem to have almost a whistle sound in the middle register, but some people are quite happy with them. But recorders of the same model and wood can be completely different in response. It is ideal to try them first. And very best to try them on approval, which the Early Music Shop offers, at least on their used recorders (I don't know about new ones as I'm not normally in that market). That's the only way I could be convinced enough that it was right for me to pay for the Hotteterre. I have been able to sell my recorders for nearly what I paid, having bought them used, so I've been able to change recorders as my interests and skills have changed. I will say that it does take a lot of practice to get used to the stretch required for a tenor, but I love the darker, richer sound so it has been worth it for me. I do practice nearly every day, as well as playing in small groups with friends 2 or 3 times a month, so I get a lot of value out of the recorders I own.

[Dave2002]

I'm not disagreeing that wooden recorders are often/generally better than plastic ones, but they are also often a significant factor more expensive. My Moeck treble is maple (I think) - a Rottenburgh - and it's interesting the comment about different woods making a difference. I wondered if that was really the case regarding the sound, or if the wood thing is more about fashion and getting matching sets. Palisander or grenadilla models seem to cost very considerably more.

I tried the Mollenhauer Adri's Dream recorder - cheapest model - simply to see if I could like it. It does require a bit of "taming", but I'd definitely consider buying one of the top end models in that range. It works quite well in some music, less well in music with higher notes which need a rapid response. I'm not actually sure that wooden ones would be more responsive, though they might have a pleasanter tone.

The comment that even supposedly "identical" models are often quite different is interesting - and does indeed suggest that buying second hand or being permitted to try before commiting to a purchase might be a good idea.

Regarding the finger stretch issue for tenors, one of our group also has a Moeck tenor, but he has had extra keys put on in places which suit his hands. I think that's a service that some suppliers and/or manufacturers can offer. At the moment I'm not so keen to play the tenor anyway, so unless things change a lot I probably won't buy a better one, but I am interested in obtaining more soprano and treble models if they offer advantages for different types of music or for different groups.

[Dave2002]

Lucie Horsch has been mentioned upthread. Here she is playing one of Van Eyck's pieces - Doen Daphne d'over schoone maeght - around 7 years ago. She is only just 20 years old now and has already made two CDs for Decca.

https://youtu.be/Pci9-ypf7oM

[Dave2002]

Good and not so good recorders

This page from John Everingham - Saunders Recorders has an audio example of an acceptable recorder sound, and one which is .... er .... atrocious. Both instruments date from the 20th Century though, but one is clearly very much better than the other. I've not heard anything as bad from modern instruments, but then I haven't tried the ultra cheap ones. OTOH I was given a kazoo as a joke present, and it doesn't work at all - probably just as well all things considered.

There's an interesting comment on those pages, though I don't necessarily agree with it. The suggestion that if an instrument (recorders and flutes are mentioned) is played by someone without good technique that the instruments somehow "learn" the sound, and then good players will find that instrument unsatisfactory - I can't accept that, though someone who isn't a reasonably good player may not look after an instrument, which will affect how well it works. I just don't believe in some such notions, which seem like voodoo or homeopathy.
Some while back there was a fad for keeping things in pyramids to improve their performance. I think that fashion has now died out.

[johnb]

This page from http://www.saundersrecorders.com/schott.htm#sound John Everingham/ Saunders .....

By the way, does anyone know how Gordon Saunders is these days.

The last I heard was that he had set up in Spain many, many years ago. (There was a prior link with Spain because in earlier times he was a classical guitarist who did much of the importing of fine classical guitars from Spain for the then Bristol Spanish Guitar Centre - which is how I came to know him.)

[Dave2002]

Kristine West is another young recorder player who is making new CDs. She is based in Sweden, and also plays early flutes.

https://youtu.be/sWcOWfJWDbs

It is a bit of a surprise to hear Mozart's flute quartets played on a recorder - and I suspect the recorder used is more technically advanced than any available in Mozart's time, so not really "authentic" - but very good playing and sound nevertheless. The Bach sonata is played on a keyless instrument, and sounds really liquid.

[Dave2002]

My latest recorders, soprano and alto, come from the new Yamaha ecodear (trademark) range. The problem with plastic recorders of any brand is that they’re ultimately destined for landfill. Ecodear is a partially plant-based polyester. Unlike conventional polyester which is made from 100% crude oil, in ecodear the ethylene glycol needed in the polymerization is made from molasses, produced during sugar refining. The manufacturers claim it’s fully recyclable, unlike polyester. I’m not qualified to comment, only time will tell. I do know that they perform very well, giving a clear, bright tone, and are comfortable to play. A few grams heavier than the older Yamaha plastic version the extra density adds value.

The materials the instruments are made out of probably matters less than how they are played imho, unless you are a professional artist, or a serious student. In consorts and groups you tend to hear a better result if everybody plays the same type, so a consort of Yamaha plastic recorders will probably sound better than a mixed consort of several different materials.

A couple of years ago I bought a Mollenhauer European boxwood soprano at a good price from Germany but had to send it back because the foot joint was loose. It’s a 3 part instrument, you see. Very disappointing, doubly so because I lost money on the exchange rate.

The key to starting to play the recorder well is to forget what you were taught at primary school. Sound production is all in the articulation which is very more complex than we were first led to believe.

Some interesting points here. I'm revisiting this, as I'm wondering how you are getting on with the sound of your Ecodear reorders -

How do you find the Ecodear material/recorders? Is it just a marketing ploy to get people to buy more, or do the instruments really sound a bit more like wooden ones? Also the notion that the material is recyclable is all very well, but I have visions of them dissolving during performances - OK - I wrote that in a previous post, sorry to repeat! What triggers the degradation?

Perhaps this is no worse, apparently, than using wood - as it seems that wooden recorders are also supposed to have a usable working life which does not extend into many decades, though the Moeck alto I have seems to have been produced in the 1980s, and it still works. I can't say whether it works as well as a new one would, though. I can see that wooden ones could degrade due to several factors - moisture, warping, cracking, and the holes becoming worn. I don't know how serious all of these are. Cracking I'd expect to be terminal, and worn holes wouldn't be good, though some could probably be repaired with inserts. Perhaps also if the bore isn't smooth, and gets dirty that spoils the tone - and maybe that can't be fixed.

I do think that the tone of the instruments does depend a bit on the player, though that is hard to quantify.

Another factor is that I think players do become more aware of the sound of instruments the more they play, and may then find that they start to prefer wood over plastic more strongly.

The comment about the Mollenhauer recorder suggests that even good makers sometimes supply duff ones.