Joy in music

[doversoul1]

"Happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come and sit softly on your shoulder."

anon, New Orleans Daily Crescent newspaper, 1848 (?)...

I wonder if the author ever saw a real, living butterfly. Maybe s/he just dreamed it/them. This is rather like saying the more you chase a cat, the more it runs away but if you ignore it, it will come to you and wag its tail at you.

I don’t believe happiness is something that comes to you. To me, it is something that you decide, acknowledge or recognise for what it is. Joy in music is the same to me. I think it is a positive response of one’s mind; you (I) need to alert your (my) mind in order for the particular music to become a joy rather than just an ordinary enjoyment.

[Serial_Apologist]

I wonder if the author ever saw a real, living butterfly. Maybe s/he just dreamed it/them. This is rather like saying the more you chase a cat, the more it runs away but if you ignore it, it will come to you and wag its tail at you.

I don’t believe happiness is something that comes to you. To me, it is something that you decide, acknowledge or recognise for what it is. Joy in music is the same to me. I think it is a positive response of one’s mind; you (I) need to alert your (my) mind in order for the particular music to become a joy rather than just an ordinary enjoyment.

I think I disagree, dovers!

I would say that happiness is a general state of mind, or a predisposition to emphasise the good things in life over the bad. Joy is something that just seems to come of itself, like a blessing - as when, for instance, one travels a long way through unchanging landscapes and then turns a corner to find a fabulous view opening out in front of ones eyes... a brilliant sunset... or maybe the unexpected smell of freshly baked bread experienced early in the morning when passing a bakery. It can to some extent be invoked, of course - I can re-invoke the feeling of joy by putting on a recording of music that does the job.

[doversoul1]

I think I disagree, dovers!

I would say that happiness is a general state of mind, or a predisposition to emphasise the good things in life over the bad. Joy is something that just seems to come of itself, like a blessing - as when, for instance, one travels a long way through unchanging landscapes and then turns a corner to find a fabulous view opening out in front of ones eyes... a brilliant sunset... or maybe the unexpected smell of freshly baked bread experienced early in the morning when passing a bakery. It can to some extent be invoked, of course - I can re-invoke the feeling of joy by putting on a recording of music that does the job.

Is this not because your mind is alert to respond to all these things? I’m sure (very sadly) those things can easily pass over the heads of an awful lot of people. And all music can be no more than a nice sound in the background of more important things whatever they may be. But when I think about it, I suspect we are saying the same thing differently.

[jayne lee wilson]

I wonder if the author ever saw a real, living butterfly. Maybe s/he just dreamed it/them. This is rather like saying the more you chase a cat, the more it runs away but if you ignore it, it will come to you and wag its tail at you.

I don’t believe happiness is something that comes to you. To me, it is something that you decide, acknowledge or recognise for what it is. Joy in music is the same to me. I think it is a positive response of one’s mind; you (I) need to alert your (my) mind in order for the particular music to become a joy rather than just an ordinary enjoyment.

You reminded me of this poem by Li Po....

So-shu dreamed, and having dreamed that he was a bird, a bee, and a butterfly,
He was uncertain why he should try to feel like anything else,
Hence his contentment.

(adapted by Ezra Pound)


Did Chuang Chou dream he was the butterfly
or the butterfly that it was Chuang Chou?
In one body’s metamorphoses
All is present
infinite virtue!

(transl. by Arthur Cooper)

[ahinton]

You reminded me of this poem by Li Po....

So-shu dreamed, and having dreamed that he was a bird, a bee, and a butterfly,
He was uncertain why he should try to feel like anything else,
Hence his contentment.

(adapted by Ezra Pound)


Did Chuang Chou dream he was the butterfly
or the butterfly that it was Chuang Chou?
In one body’s metamorphoses
All is present
infinite virtue!

(transl. by Arthur Cooper)

Thank you for this!

[jayne lee wilson]

I wonder if the author ever saw a real, living butterfly. Maybe s/he just dreamed it/them. This is rather like saying the more you chase a cat, the more it runs away but if you ignore it, it will come to you and wag its tail at you.

I don’t believe happiness is something that comes to you. To me, it is something that you decide, acknowledge or recognise for what it is. Joy in music is the same to me. I think it is a positive response of one’s mind; you (I) need to alert your (my) mind in order for the particular music to become a joy rather than just an ordinary enjoyment.

Having lived with Cats all my life I can only say that (apart from the tail-wagging of course!... which in Cats is a more complex form of body language than in dear devoted doggies) is often how they behave - with a sort of wise caprice.
(If a Cat comes at you rapidly swishing its tail watch out....! Slowly waving it... should be OK!)

Out in the garden... well try persuading a butterfly to come to you...... they will indeed alight upon you when you don't expect it. It's lovely, one of the essences of Summer (those Flutter-bys are too flighty in Spring...the hardly alight anywhere for long.).
Just sad that they were so sparse last year...

(If you can decide to be happy I can only envy you.... part of my current problem is that I don't always feel like listening, or don't know what to listen to, but still miss it, but can't decide to enjoy it, or respond to it....something has to catch my imagination; I often feel at the mercy of moods or emotions.
So I drink, or watch films instead, usually both at the same time, which doesn't really work with symphonies....)

[doversoul1]

Having lived with Cats all my life I can only say that (apart from the tail-wagging of course!... which in Cats is a more complex form of body language than in dear devoted doggies) is often how they behave - with a sort of wise caprice.
(If a Cat comes at you rapidly swishing its tail watch out....! Slowly waving it... should be OK!)

Out in the garden... well try persuading a butterfly to come to you...... they will indeed alight upon you when you don't expect it. It's lovely, one of the essences of Summer (those Flutter-bys are too flighty in Spring...the hardly alight anywhere for long.).
Just sad that they were so sparse last year...

(If you can decide to be happy I can only envy you.... part of my current problem is that I don't always feel like listening, or don't know what to listen to, but still miss it, but can't decide to enjoy it, or respond to it....something has to catch my imagination; I often feel at the mercy of moods or emotions.
So I drink, or watch films instead, usually both at the same time, which doesn't really work with symphonies....)

The point I was making was not about cats but about the simile in your quote.
We'd better get back to the subject. Sorry about derailing it.

[Serial_Apologist]

You reminded me of this poem by Li Po....

So-shu dreamed, and having dreamed that he was a bird, a bee, and a butterfly,
He was uncertain why he should try to feel like anything else,
Hence his contentment.

(adapted by Ezra Pound)


Did Chuang Chou dream he was the butterfly
or the butterfly that it was Chuang Chou?
In one body’s metamorphoses
All is present
infinite virtue!

(transl. by Arthur Cooper)

What a coincidence! I've just listened to a recording I made in 2005 of Peter Maxwell Davies being interviewed, and he made exactly the same reference!

[ardcarp]

I wonder if the author ever saw a real, living butterfly. Maybe s/he just dreamed it/them. This is rather like saying the more you chase a cat, the more it runs away but if you ignore it, it will come to you and wag its tail at you.

I don’t believe happiness is something that comes to you. To me, it is something that you decide, acknowledge or recognise for what it is. Joy in music is the same to me. I think it is a positive response of one’s mind; you (I) need to alert your (my) mind in order for the particular music to become a joy rather than just an ordinary enjoyment.

Dovers, I've occasionally found I can be 'Surprised by Joy' whether it's through hearing a piece of music or other life experiences.
(Mind you I recommend taking the quote out of its original poetic context. One of Wordswoth's darker pieces.)

[doversoul1]

Dovers, I've occasionally found I can be 'Surprised by Joy' whether it's through hearing a piece of music or other life experiences.
(Mind you I recommend taking the quote out of its original poetic context. One of Wordswoth's darker pieces.)

I think the sort of surprise and joy we are talking about here needs our minds to be receptive to have any impact but as I’ve said, we are probably talking about the same thing (or we wouldn’t be here in the first place )

[gurnemanz]

Falling in Love - Randy Newman ("feeling wonderful")
Beethoven - start of Spring Sonata (Oistrakh)

[gradus]

From Gesegnet sei to the end of the Good Friday Music (Parsifal). Wonderful vocal writing and Wagner at his most inspired. Youtube yielded this lovely unhurried version with Kurt Moll and (I think) Jon Vickers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWUw-GIfpPU

[LMcD]

The opening bars of Frank Bridge's 'The Sea', Beethoven's 'Spring Sonata' and Mozart's 'Prague' symphony.

[doversoul1]

This Dutch performance of Vivaldi’s Juditha Thriumphans by Venice Baroque and Andrea Marcon with the Pieta like girls choir, and the fanfare is one of my staple sources of joy. A joy rather than a pleasure but I don’t think I can explain the difference between the two when it comes to music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WDKWqE0fys

[Quarky]

A far Eastern perspective on the meaning of Joy - hopefully a clarification:

https://www.yogajournal.com/lifestyle/feel-the-joy

You do not have to create joy; it is an innate quality already within you, like the capacity to walk or to be kind. You come into this world as an innocent baby with a natural joy. You can still squeal with delight, given the right circumstances. What you likely forget, though, is that you can feel this joy even when the circumstances aren't just right. In fact, this natural joy is available at all times, and you can consciously cultivate it so that it's easily accessible, even during difficult moments