Schubert’s 4th Symphony: Advice please

[alycidon]

Thank you all for your erudite comments although some have gone over my head somewhat - I’m just a simple soul really, and yes, I am conservative - with a small ‘c’ so that could be behind my happy espousal of this symphony. It was interesting to hear that others consider McNaught to be unduly disparaging in his critique and I am sure that Franz would be quite happy that his 4th has at least one admirer in myself.

[cloughie]

diddly-dum, diddly-dum, diddly-dum, diddly-dum, diddly-dum, . . .

I love it.

You sopund as though you are on a train pre long-welded rail!

[Dave2002]

diddly-dum, diddly-dum, diddly-dum, diddly-dum, diddly-dum, . . .

I love it.

As I wrote - on a good day. Sometimes it just sounds like trains going over a whole bunch of points!

[Conchis]

I'll admit that I've always found it a wholly unmemorable work and so I would actually take succour from the words of the uppity critic!

The 'Tragic' appellation has always bothered me, too. Aint nothing tragic about it, I'd say; but then I"m not, and have never been, Austrian....

For me, Schubert is either stunningly memorable - Death & The Maiden, The String Quintet, The 8th and 9th Symphonies, the Piano Trio in B Flat Minor, or utterly forgettable (most of his piano music, sadly).

[jayne lee wilson]

I love all the Schubert Symphonies unreservedly, and feel that Nos. 1 and 2 are rarely given their due - with their remarkably extended, eventful, multi-idea expositions and tiny anti-developments. With the 3rd he finds the merits of concision; its sister work, the 5th, shares with the 3rd an almost paradisical serenity and joy. The 6th seems like pure musical happiness, full of a sheer love of orchestral sound and Rossinian musical jokes.

So to the 4th, whose Tragic denomination seems very apt to me, as it has an unusual stern-ness and defiance about its outer movement energies, the minuet, and the slow movement's central section (those sad sighing phrases before the return to the opening remind me of Monteverdi's Ingrate...."apprendete pietà"..("learn (i.e. take) pity") which (as Ed remarked) relate it closely to Haydn's Sturm und Drang symphonies, most of which do end in the major and have highly intense and varied light-to-dark expression shifts along their eventful way. Again, think of Mozart's darkly brooding D Minor Piano Concerto, with its blissed-out, otherworldly but reality-bitten Romanza, and that sudden rather manic shift to the major at its close. No triumph there.

The Schubert 4th seems to be trying to escape from a threat; finding some solace in the andante (first part) and the trio, but always brought back face-to-face with the shadow again. Flight or flight!
The ending? A very temporary reprieve, almost a Shostakovichian desperation, trying to cheer yourself up (c.f DSCH 6 & 9), like a brief alcoholical high - after which you face the truth once more.

Unusual in the Symphonies (apart from that swooping and soaring tragic masterpiece, the completed B Minor D759, with which the 4th has some of the aforementioned features in common e.g. a consolingly Haydnesque trio), but of course this dichotomy is found in Schubert's Piano and Chamber music, most especially the D887 and D810, with their haunted houses, rides to the abyss, furiously driven escapes and briefly, magically consoling melodies.

***
An extraordinary outpouring of Schubert Symphony recordings in the last few years has rewarded us with wonderful 4ths from Minkowski, Herreweghe, De Vriend and others...it seems to benefit from period instruments or HIPPs approaches even more than the other symphonies; but that's for another post!

[gurnemanz]

The winner was ???

[BaL in 2012 + comments from Forumites.]

[jayne lee wilson]

The winner was ???

[BaL in 2012 + comments from Forumites.]

Norrington a longterm favourite with me; always found the Davis cycle a shade dull, regretted the purchase somewhat - it doesn't come of the shelf much. But as I just said in #20, I'd take Minkowski and the recent Herreweghe and de Vriend over most of them - that BaL survey is out-of-date now.

EA can call me a Holy Hippite if he likes , but I don't feel large luxurious modern orchestras do the earlier Schubert symphonies, up to No 5, any favours. (Even modern chamber orchestras can sound too comfortable in some of the movements).
They seem to restrict the expressive and coloristic range.

(OT, but THIS 5th is a little known marvel, with some unusual c/ws too....

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/schubert-concert-overtures-symphony-no-5-lorfeo-barockorchester/0886443009127

[Bryn]

I'm afraid Schubert's 5th is a difficult one for me. I am always taken to the recording of Cage's Variations IV, as recorded at the Feigen-Palmer Gallery, or the Quodlibet For Small Orchestra By Peter Schickele, both of which quote it prominently.

[Conchis]

I love all the Schubert Symphonies unreservedly, and feel that Nos. 1 and 2 are rarely given their due - with their remarkably extended, eventful, multi-idea expositions and tiny anti-developments. With the 3rd he finds the merits of concision; its sister work, the 5th, shares with the 3rd an almost paradisical serenity and joy. The 6th seems like pure musical happiness, full of a sheer love of orchestral sound and Rossinian musical jokes.

So to the 4th, whose Tragic denomination seems very apt to me, as it has an unusual stern-ness and defiance about its outer movement energies, the minuet, and the slow movement's central section (those sad sighing phrases before the return to the opening remind me of Monteverdi's Ingrate...."apprendete pietà"..("learn (i.e. take) pity") which (as Ed remarked) relate it closely to Haydn's Sturm und Drang symphonies, most of which do end in the major and have highly intense and varied light-to-dark expression shifts along their eventful way. Again, think of Mozart's darkly brooding D Minor Piano Concerto, with its blissed-out, otherworldly but reality-bitten Romanza, and that sudden rather manic shift to the major at its close. No triumph there.

The Schubert 4th seems to be trying to escape from a threat; finding some solace in the andante (first part) and the minuet, but always brought back face-to-face with the shadow again. Flight or flight!
The ending? A very temporary reprieve, almost a Shostakovichian desperation, trying to cheer yourself up (c.f DSCH 6 & 9), like a brief alcoholical high - after which you face the truth once more.

Unusual in the Symphonies (apart from that swooping and soaring tragic masterpiece, the completed B Minor D759, with which the 4th has some of the aforementioned features in common e.g. a consolingly Haydnesque trio), but of course this dichotomy is found in Schubert's Piano and Chamber music, most especially the D887 and D810, with their haunted houses, rides to the abyss, furiously driven escapes and briefly, magically consoling melodies.

***
An extraordinary outpouring of Schubert Symphony recordings in the last few years has rewarded us with wonderful 4ths from Minkowski, Herreweghe, De Vriend and others...it seems to benefit from period instruments or HIPPs approaches even more than the other symphonies; but that's for another post!

I do love reading posts like this one, even if I still don't 'get' the work discussed! :)

It's so nice to share a forum with people like jlw!

[Joseph K]

I do love reading posts like this one, even if I still don't 'get' the work discussed! :)

It's so nice to share a forum with people like jlw!

[edashtav]

I do love reading posts like this one, even if I still don't 'get' the work discussed! :)

It's so nice to share a forum with people like jlw!

Yes, Conchis, jlw writes with love and enthusiasm; it's easy to knock but more difficult to appreciate.

[Edgy 2]

I do love reading posts like this one, even if I still don't 'get' the work discussed! :)

It's so nice to share a forum with people like jlw!

Most certainly.

FWIW I do find the 4th tragic,or at least tormented and troubled,any joy or happiness therein is Schubert putting on a brave face,only IMVHO.

[MickyD]

I'm still very fond of the Hanover Band's version - most will find the acoustic far too swimmy, but I love it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRB95ww1BN4

[gurnemanz]

I'm still very fond of the Hanover Band's version - most will find the acoustic far too swimmy, but I love it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRB95ww1BN4

So am I, despite swimminess, and notice that it is my only recording of the Fourth. For a couple of decades Sawallisch/DresdenStaatskapelle on LP was my only version. I seem to have acquired lots of Fifths.

[cloughie]

Giulini - interesting conductor - tended not to go for cycles, but did what he liked more than once - Schubert symphonies 4 8 and 9 - recorded all three 4 and 9 with CSO and BavRSO and 8 with aforesaid and also Philharmonia.