Prog Rock

[zola]

Were Family prog rock ? Or Traffic ? What about Audience ? The Flock from the US ?

I guess if a massive keyboard set up is obligatory that counts out an off the wall duo, Clark Hutchinson ( A=MH2 ) ?

And what kind of genre were the Third Ear Band ?

[Conchis]

Do Zeppelin qualify as prog rock? I think they're as good as it gets but their influences (always a vexed question with them anyway, especially when it came to attribution) are more traditional blues/folk/rock than experimental.

I'd say this is the closest they got:

https://youtu.be/fWSCAm6qVHU

I might also mention Achilles' Last Stand on Presence, but that is basically blues-rock on steroids.

[Lat-Literal]

Were Family prog rock ? Or Traffic ? What about Audience ? The Flock from the US ?

I guess if a massive keyboard set up is obligatory that counts out an off the wall duo, Clark Hutchinson ( A=MH2 ) ?

That question about Family is exactly the same one that I was asking myself as I was walking along the pavement. The splendid "Burlesque" turned up on the first edition of this series of "Round Britain Quiz". Maconie's team mate said that he was the only person who would have known it to which he replied "I very much doubt it". Other names which cropped up in my head then included the mediaeval rock band Gryphon who were arguably closer in a strange way to FoR3 interests than any of the rest and also the Irish prog rock band, Horslips.

Gryphon - Juniper Suite

Reunion in 2009 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuNy-Mi1-zE

Horslips - Dearg Doom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5G8AJf4Xzw

[Conchis]

Were Family prog rock ? Or Traffic ? What about Audience ? The Flock from the US ?

No, in each case, imo. The Flock had a violinist (Jerry Goodman) but otherwise weren't very proggy at all. Much more like Vanilla Fudge in concept (who were more a psychedelic jam band than prog). I don't think there has ever been a 'real' American prog band, leaving aside Yes copyists like Starcastle.

I guess if a massive keyboard set up is obligatory that counts out an off the wall duo, Clark Hutchinson ( A=MH2 ) ?

And what kind of genre were the Third Ear Band ?[/QUOTE]

Post-rock?

[cloughie]

Thank Goodness for rules based entities.

Even I know that Zep and the Doors ( Lat , are you there?) aren’t prog.

For a start you need a big **** off stack of keyboards, and a drum kit that needs its own transit van.
As a minimum.

Not necessarily, you’re thinking of the excessive 70s stadium stuff, not the origins!

[Lat-Literal]

Thank Goodness for rules based entities.

Even I know that Zep and the Doors ( Lat , are you there?) aren’t prog.

For a start you need a big **** off stack of keyboards, and a drum kit that needs its own transit van.
As a minimum.

To answer your question, ts, I deliberately went for a list that was mildly provocative. You've got there elements of mainstream and alternative sixties, blues based rock, the poetic, communal experimentalists, Krautrock, albums leaning towards MOR, post punk indie-ish things and more. This does, actually, reflect my own leanings to the extent that I have never claimed to have been a big prog rock enthusiast or wanted to be so especially. I would also agree with Beef Oven who questions how easy it is to be specific in the categorisation.

Naturally then I approach this in an "everything but the bullseye" sort of way and after that it is for you to decide what you agree with or even want. What interests me in this area - and others - is the kaleidoscope of hues to be found and the interlinkages that seem right to me and yet while knowing others would often vehemently disagree. I could, for example, find a read across from Daevid Allen to Jonathan Richman but not so much from Peter Gabriel in his Genesis phase to the same Jonathan Richman even if you could ordinarily link Gabriel tentatively to Allen. That is in the genuine offbeat character of the individuals concerned. Think also Zappa and Beefheart and Cutler and Arthur Lee and very many unusual others. I'm not so keen in finding bands which are barely known and not very different from a lot of other things although everyone would agree that they would fit the category well.

[cloughie]

that's not the definition of prog rock and I've already ruled that we are not getting into a definition

If you’re not going to define it how can you decide whether it is or not prog. The problem is that music in the mid 60s was nicely evolving - there were good musicians around in jazz, rock, folk, pop, all fusing and coming together and then some fool in the music industry thinks there should be a label or genre for it with special record labels - so EMI introduce Haevest, Decca develop Deram, Philips introduce Vertigo, Island pops up. If I remember correctly there was the term Underground. Oh, Beefy as you are a big fan amongst all this lot was Beefheart and Zappa and the Edgar Broughton Band. But there were famous cheap samplers from all these labels like on Harvest - Picnic A breath of Fresh Air, Deram World of Progressive Music, Island’s Nice Enough to Eat and from CBS The Rock Machine Turns You On.

[silvestrione]

Can't get to 10!

Close to the Edge Yes
Tales of Topographic Oceans Yes
The Yes Album
Selling England by the Pound Genesis


And after reading this thread, have sent for Larks Tongue in Aspic, which will be my first non-classical purchase in some years! (Apart from some live versions of my first three choices).

[teamsaint]

To answer your question, ts, I deliberately went for a list that was mildly provocative. You've got there elements of mainstream and alternative sixties, blues based rock, the poetic, communal experimentalists, Krautrock, albums leaning towards MOR, post punk indie-ish things and more. This does, actually, reflect my own leanings to the extent that I have never claimed to have been a big prog rock enthusiast or wanted to do so especially. I would also agree with Beef Oven who questions how easy it is to be specific in the categorisation.

Naturally then I approach this in an "everything but the bullseye" sort of way and after that it is for you to decide what you agree with or even want. What interests me in this area - and others - is the kaleidoscope of hues to be found and the interlinkages that seem right to me and yet others would often vehemently disagree. I could, for example, find a read across from Daevid Allen to Jonathan Richman but not so much from Peter Gabriel in his Genesis phase to the same Jonathan Richman even if you could ordinarily link Gabriel tentatively to Allen. That is in the genuine offbeat character of the individuals concerned. Think also Zappa and Beefheart and Cutler and Arthur Lee and a whole host of unusual others. I'm not so keen in identifying bands which are barely known and not particularly different from a lot of other things although they would fit the category well.

Well yours is an interesting list Lat.I’m not too keen on definitions, despite my starting this thread, since they often are a nonsense. EG, One sometimes sees Siouxsie and the Banshees described as post punk, which is clearly silly, although they obviously made very different music from more mainstream punk bands.

Going back to your examples, Beefheart wouldnt get into a prog rock list of mine, or even near it.

Mention of XTC, one can clearly hear influence of bands who moved from psychedelic pop on into prog, such as Floyd. But influence is one thing.......

[Lat-Literal]

Well yours is an interesting list Lat.I’m not too keen on definitions, despite my starting this thread, since they often are a nonsense. EG, One sometine sees Siouxsie and the Banshees described as post punk, which is clearly silly, although they obviously made very different music from more mainstream punk bands.

Going back to your examples, Beefheart wouldnt get into a prog rock list of mine.

Mention of XTC, one can clearly hear influence of bands who moved from psychedelic pop on into prog, such as Floyd. But influence is one thing.......

Thank you.

Other names that are not wholly appropriate are crossing my mind - Sun Ra, Rotary Connection, Echo and the Bunnymen - but then I am more for psychedelia than prog per se. That is the way my mind works. Some of it is also generational. We've got the 60s stuff as children and the indie-ish stuff which connects back in our 20s. Then there is the roots based connection which, blues aside, often skipped the 70s only to come back in the 80s with MTCH as you know and others. So that weaves back into any late prog investigations as does punk. That is not to say we weren't there at the time as we were and could pick up on things of interest but a gap in age of about 3 years in some of us made a hell of a difference.

[teamsaint]

Thank you.

Other names that are not wholly appropriate are crossing my mind - Sun Ra, Rotary Connection, Echo and the Bunnymen - but then I am more for psychedelia than prog per se. That is the way my mind works. Some of it is also generational. We've got the 60s stuff as children and the indie-ish stuff which connects back in our 20s. Then there is the roots based connection which, blues aside, often skipped the 70s only to come back in the 80s with MTCH as you know and others. So that weaves back into any late prog investigations as does punk. That is not to say that we weren't there at the time because we were and could pick up on things of interests but a gap in age of about 3 years in some of us made a hell of a difference.

I would agree with something that I think you are saying, which is that where people, music, genres meet are often the most interesting. TMTCH are an almost perfect punk/folk fusion, and the thing that would interest me about Jethro Tull would be the place they seem to occupy across folk and prog. Your point about the 3 years ( or whatever ) age gap is very significant. These short time scales matter enormously in the teens, not so much in the later decades.

One of the most enjoyable parts of music discussion is finding points of shared enjoyment with others who have generally rather different tastes. Well for me it is.

[Serial_Apologist]

To answer your question, ts, I deliberately went for a list that was mildly provocative. You've got there elements of mainstream and alternative sixties, blues based rock, the poetic, communal experimentalists, Krautrock, albums leaning towards MOR, post punk indie-ish things and more. This does, actually, reflect my own leanings to the extent that I have never claimed to have been a big prog rock enthusiast or wanted to be so especially. I would also agree with Beef Oven who questions how easy it is to be specific in the categorisation.

Naturally then I approach this in an "everything but the bullseye" sort of way and after that it is for you to decide what you agree with or even want. What interests me in this area - and others - is the kaleidoscope of hues to be found and the interlinkages that seem right to me and yet while knowing others would often vehemently disagree. I could, for example, find a read across from Daevid Allen to Jonathan Richman but not so much from Peter Gabriel in his Genesis phase to the same Jonathan Richman even if you could ordinarily link Gabriel tentatively to Allen. That is in the genuine offbeat character of the individuals concerned. Think also Zappa and Beefheart and Cutler and Arthur Lee and very many unusual others. I'm not so keen in finding bands which are barely known and not very different from a lot of other things although everyone would agree that they would fit the category well.

Inter-generic fluidity in terms of categorical definitions often boils down to who was in whose band, and when - musicians taking influences, sometimes developed on, from one unit to others. Your link between Peter Gabriel and Daevid Allen has analogies with a band such as Soft Machine, whose personnel had changed ten years on from its origins around 1966. Classification is wonderful so long as one does not mistake maps for journeys - I am forever reminded of the story about the man who has had a particularly fine knife in his posession. One day a friend says to him, "I must say, you do manage to keep that knife in top condition, considering the length of time you've had it. How do you manage to keep it looking so good?" "Well", replies the other, "Every ten years, I replace the blade; and every other ten years I replace the handle!"

Back around 15 years ago, some useful people devised family trees showing which bands came out of which, and who moved between them. Like illustrated musical data bases. I derived great enjoyment from just perusing them, and still have one or two filed away somewhere.

[Lat-Literal]

I would agree with something that I think you are saying, which is that where people, music, genres meet are often the most interesting. TMTCH are an almost perfect punk/folk fusion, and the thing that would interest me about Jethro Tull would be the place they seem to occupy across folk and prog. Your point about the 3 years ( or whatever ) age gap is very significant. These short time scales matter enormously in the teens, not so much in the later decades.

One of the most enjoyable parts of music discussion is finding points of shared enjoyment with others who have generally rather different tastes. Well for me it is.

I completely agree with everything you are saying here.

There might also be something about mental age. At 14, I was 14 at most. Some others were more like 17 or 23 at 14. They were the ones into prog rock.

Can you think of that band in the 2000s who were not unlike XTC and yet hailed as a return of prog rock? I just can't remember their name and it's driving me crackers. I thought they were an offshoot of the Futureheads which features brothers and I'm fairly sure that this band also featured brothers. Anyhow, if it was prog rock, it was in a pared down, spiky, form.

[teamsaint]

I completely agree with all of what you are saying here.

There might also be something about mental age. At 14, I was 14 at most. Some others were more like 17 or 23 at 14. They were the ones into prog rock.

Can you think of that band in the 2000s who were not unlike XTC but hailed as a return of prog rock? I just can't remember their name and it's driving me crackers. I thought they were an offshoot of the Futureheads who contain brothers and I'm fairly sure that this band also contained brothers. If it was prog rock, it was in a very pared down spiky form.

Not sure who they might be. Funny how influence works though. These days, Flaming Lips( proggy edge at times? ) seem to be hugely influential when I have my occasional forays into contemporary pop rock, esp american... not something I would have expected 10 years ago. I was listening to Age of Adz by Sufjan Stevens, and it has the Lips all over it. Good stuff though.


What I also meant to say was that I think that Bill Nelson was very good at identifying those place of interest, where things meet.

[Lat-Literal]

Not sure who they might be. Funny how influence works though. These days, Flaming Lips( proggy edge at times? ) seem to be hugely influential when I have my occasional forays into contemporary pop rock, esp american... not something I would have expected 10 years ago. I was listening to Age of Adz by Sufjan Stevens, and it has the Lips all over it. Good stuff though.

Yes.

Well, there was that time at the turn of the century when first Mercury Rev and then The Flaming Lips picked up Album of the Year in key places. I was forever defending them against accusations from people I know that "they can't sing". This, to my mind, was the moment when the US picked up after almost a decade of Britpop, reclaiming some turf for the first time since Nirvana et al. The Lips, wacky and with a real - to my mind fabulous - show. The Rev almost as offbeat but genuinely darker. Rather as Simple Minds had recorded four art albums before "New Gold Dream", the album on which they peaked although subsequent albums sold in bigger numbers, both these bands had produced all kinds of experimental peculiarities.

That is, until, at some advanced age, they managed to pull the threads together towards something almost commercial. There have been highs and lows ever since and it was unrealistic to expect or even want consistency. I understand that last year's effort by the FL's was a turkey but I've read about what is in the pipeline and, on paper, I am looking forward to it.

Incidentally, no one has yet mentioned the word "overblown". This is the central criticism of prog. Lydon's voice can be heard here as I am writing. "No humour". What the Flaming Lips do with something like the title "Pompeii Am Gotterdammerung" is address it and subvert it. And very much on the "probably not prog" fringes, I do very much like these two Loreleis:

Wishbone Ash - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZGys3RfRog

Mercury Rev - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcKBoyfbNt4