The 2018 Survey of 'Classical' Music on Radio 3

[Richard Barrett]

There's Part (apologies for the spelling) at #63

oo yes he's still alive of course

[Suffolkcoastal]

Suffy:

These would be my suggestions for the other categories:

de Machaut, Dunstable, Dufay, Praetorius, Frescobaldi, Scarlatti, A
Alkan, Gade, Raff, Reinecke, Goldmark, Balakirev,
Ireland, Birtwistle, Rubbra, Moeran, Stainer, Maxwell Davies
Todd, W, Bates, M, Rutter, Einaudi, Richter, Lauridsen

Here we go!

MACHAUT 27 8 24 4 9 8 16 24 21 15
DUFAY 27 31 11 7 8 5 13 15 10 12
DUNSTABLE 4 3 5 2 6 2 5 2 7 3
PRAETORIUS M 26 17 19 39 34 35 25 40 67 25
FRESCOBALDI 92 38 24 20 23 4 14 15 30 15
SCARLATTI A 36 74 47 26 34 53 26 20 45 33

ALKAN 14 11 13 12 15 8 9 14 8 7
GADE N 8 6 4 8 9 7 21 11 43 16
RAFF 2 2 0 2 6 5 8 5 5 11
REINECKE 7 8 5 11 13 9 11 7 6 11
GOLDMARK K 14 12 19 17 19 18 25 13 12 15
BALAKIREV 14 27 48 16 22 19 19 7 10 18

BIRTWISTLE 26 18 14 18 15 54 27 14 24 19
DAVIES P MAXWELL 39 23 14 27 30 78 39 87 74 31
IRELAND J 36 26 33 61 56 52 41 38 37 41
MOERAN 21 42 5 21 31 42 18 40 22 22
RUBBRA 9 6 10 14 13 9 7 28 9 7
STAINER 5 7 3 3 4 4 2 4 6 4

BATES M 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 2 2 6
LAURIDSEN 16 10 6 7 16 9 9 12 14 22
RICHTER M 0 0 2 18 11 13 23 13 20 22
RUTTER 40 20 27 29 24 22 26 24 19 24
TODD W 0 5 4 3 6 4 1 4 6 5

I consign Einaudi to the non-classical figures, but to be fair to R3 his 'music' has hardly ever appeared, well at least so far!

[Lat-Literal]

Here we go!

MACHAUT 27 8 24 4 9 8 16 24 21 15
DUFAY 27 31 11 7 8 5 13 15 10 12
DUNSTABLE 4 3 5 2 6 2 5 2 7 3
PRAETORIUS M 26 17 19 39 34 35 25 40 67 25
FRESCOBALDI 92 38 24 20 23 4 14 15 30 15
SCARLATTI A 36 74 47 26 34 53 26 20 45 33

ALKAN 14 11 13 12 15 8 9 14 8 7
GADE N 8 6 4 8 9 7 21 11 43 16
RAFF 2 2 0 2 6 5 8 5 5 11
REINECKE 7 8 5 11 13 9 11 7 6 11
GOLDMARK K 14 12 19 17 19 18 25 13 12 15
BALAKIREV 14 27 48 16 22 19 19 7 10 18

BIRTWISTLE 26 18 14 18 15 54 27 14 24 19
DAVIES P MAXWELL 39 23 14 27 30 78 39 87 74 31
IRELAND J 36 26 33 61 56 52 41 38 37 41
MOERAN 21 42 5 21 31 42 18 40 22 22
RUBBRA 9 6 10 14 13 9 7 28 9 7
STAINER 5 7 3 3 4 4 2 4 6 4

BATES M 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 2 2 6
LAURIDSEN 16 10 6 7 16 9 9 12 14 22
RICHTER M 0 0 2 18 11 13 23 13 20 22
RUTTER 40 20 27 29 24 22 26 24 19 24
TODD W 0 5 4 3 6 4 1 4 6 5

I consign Einaudi to the non-classical figures, but to be fair to R3 his 'music' has hardly ever appeared, well at least so far!

Again, thank you. Not too many conclusions to be drawn here. But the first group - the earliest - does not in the main have its highest figures at this end of the decade. The second group - 19th C - is much of a muchness and the many Alkan supporters here won't be impressed. The British group is also fairly constant with occasional ups and downs although PMD did well towards the end of the decade coinciding with his passing. Re the fourth, there may be a very slight nod in the direction of Classic FM style favourites but it isn't conclusive.

Do you have any more thoughts on what has emerged since your OP?

Mainly content - or disappointed?

[oddoneout]

Great job as always sc.
I'm pleased that Dora Pejacevic just made it.
Our friend Weinberg ?

Several outings on EC.

[Suffolkcoastal]

Several outings on EC.

She was one of the COTW in 2018, this accounts for a considerable %.

[Suffolkcoastal]

Again, thank you. Not too many conclusions to be drawn here. But the first group - the earliest - does not in the main have its highest figures at this end of the decade. The second group - 19th C - is much of a muchness and the many Alkan supporters here won't be impressed. The British group is also fairly constant with occasional ups and downs although PMD did well towards the end of the decade coinciding with his passing. Re the fourth, there may be a very slight nod in the direction of Classic FM style favourites but it isn't conclusive.

Do you have any more thoughts on what has emerged since your OP?

Mainly content - or disappointed?

The problem is still the falling back on playing the familiar & 'safe' repertoire. Classical & Romantic are works are totally dominated by the familiar composers, with less well known composers usually confined to an occasional little chunk or having the same couple of pieces recycled every few weeks on TTN. The RW era sidelining of certain c20th composers such as Hindemith, Honegger, Milhaud, Tansman, Martin & Martinu continues. Many British composers still languish in total neglect - Rawsthorne, Searle, Fricker, D Jones, Josephs, R Simpson (not a single note of his music has been broadcast on R3 since 2014!). The same with some very fine Scandinavian composers such as Holmboe, Sallinen, Kokkonen, Koppel. Apart from a well-known few many American composers remain neglected, Carter, Sessions, Schuman, Harris, Diamond, Rochberg & Piston for example.

[Edgy 2]

The problem is still the falling back on playing the familiar & 'safe' repertoire. Classical & Romantic are works are totally dominated by the familiar composers, with less well known composers usually confined to an occasional little chunk or having the same couple of pieces recycled every few weeks on TTN. The RW era sidelining of certain c20th composers such as Hindemith, Honegger, Milhaud, Tansman, Martin & Martinu continues. Many British composers still languish in total neglect - Rawsthorne, Searle, Fricker, D Jones, Josephs, R Simpson (not a single note of his music has been broadcast on R3 since 2014!). The same with some very fine Scandinavian composers such as Holmboe, Sallinen, Kokkonen, Koppel. Apart from a well-known few many American composers remain neglected, Carter, Sessions, Schuman, Harris, Diamond, Rochberg & Piston for example.

Nothing short of disgraceful

[Lat-Literal]

The problem is still the falling back on playing the familiar & 'safe' repertoire. Classical & Romantic are works are totally dominated by the familiar composers, with less well known composers usually confined to an occasional little chunk or having the same couple of pieces recycled every few weeks on TTN. The RW era sidelining of certain c20th composers such as Hindemith, Honegger, Milhaud, Tansman, Martin & Martinu continues. Many British composers still languish in total neglect - Rawsthorne, Searle, Fricker, D Jones, Josephs, R Simpson (not a single note of his music has been broadcast on R3 since 2014!). The same with some very fine Scandinavian composers such as Holmboe, Sallinen, Kokkonen, Koppel. Apart from a well-known few many American composers remain neglected, Carter, Sessions, Schuman, Harris, Diamond, Rochberg & Piston for example.

Yes - I quite agree.

And it isn't as if a lot of the names you mention are inconsequential!

[Suffolkcoastal]

Here's the breakdown by broadcasts of 'complete' symphonies/sinfonias/sinfoniettas.

The overall total of 1079 is the lowest since I first started recording these figures in 2011.

The most broadcast symphonies were Prokofiev No 1 & surprisingly Beethoven No 4 with 16 complete broadcasts. Followed by Beethoven No 7, Sibelius No 2 & Tchaikovsky No 5 with 15 broadcasts.

F J HAYDN 97
MOZART W A 90
BEETHOVEN 84
SIBELIUS 56
MAHLER 52
DVORAK 39
TCHAIKOVSKY 36
SHOSTAKOVICH 35
BRAHMS 33
MENDELSSOHN 30
SCHUBERT 30
PROKOFIEV 27
BACH CPE 26
SCHUMANN 25
BRUCKNER 22
VAUGHAN WILLIAMS 13
BERLIOZ 12
NIELSEN 12
RACHMANINOV 12
STRAVINSKY 12
BRITTEN 10
ELGAR 10
ABEL 9
BOYCE 9
BACH J C 8
BERNSTEIN 8
COPLAND 7
KRAUS 7
MARTINU 7
BANTOCK 6
TIPPETT 6
GILSON 5
LUTOSLAWSKI 5
MESSIAEN 5
SAINT-SAENS 5
SCRIABIN 5
STRAUSS R 5
WALTON 5
ARNOLD 4
BACH JCF 4
BIZET 4
DOBRZYNSKI 4
M HAYDN 4
IVES 4
JIRANEK 4
MALISZEWSKI 4
MOYZES 4
SAINT-GEORGES 4
ANTHEIL 3
BENNETT R ROD 3
FODOR 3
GIPPS 3
GOUNOD 3
JANACEK 3
KUNZEN 3
PARRY 3
PEIRERA 3
SALIERI 3
WANSKI 3
ZIMMERMANN B A 3
ANDRICU 2
ARRIAGA 2
BACEWICZ 2
BACH W F 2
BERIO 2
BORODIN 2
BOYLE I 2
BRUCH 2
GLUCK 2
GORECKI 2
GOSSEC 2
GRIEG 2
HACZEWSKI 2
HARRIS 2
HERSCHEL 2
LANGGAARD 2
MATHIAS 2
MYSLIVECEK 2
NAUMANN 2
NORGARD 2
PART 2
PENDERECKI 2
ROMAN 2
SAMMARTINI 2
SCARLATTI D 2
SUMERA 2
TANAYEV 2
TORELLI 2
TUBIN 2
VIVALDI 2
WEBER 2
WIENIAWSKI J 2
ALBINONI 1
ALMEIDA 1
BAJAMONTI 1
BARBER 1
BEDFORD D 1
BOCCHERINI 1
BRIXI 1
CHADWICK 1
CHAUSSON 1
CHAVEZ 1
COWEN F 1
DEBUSSY 1
DONIZETTI 1
DUTTILEUX 1
EBERL 1
ENGEL 1
EYBLER 1
FARRENC 1
FASCH 1
FRANCK 1
FREDERICK THE GREAT 1
GLINKA 1
GOEHR A 1
GOULD M 1
HALVORSEN 1
HANSON 1
HINDEMITH 1
HODDINOTT 1
HOLST 1
HOOF 1
HYDE T 1
IVANOVS 1
JOUBERT 1
KAJANUS 1
KASHPEROVA 1
KASKI 1
KNUSSEN 1
LINEK 1
MANFREDINI 1
MANTZAROS 1
MAZZOLI M 1
MEALOR P 1
MEDER J G 1
MEHUL 1
MIELCK 1
PETTERSSON A 1
POULENC 1
RAFF 1
RAYCHEV 1
REICHA 1
SCHMIDT 1
SCHMITT F 1
SCIGALSKI 1
SILVESTROV 1
SIXTA 1
SOLNITZ 1
SORKOCEVIC 1
STANFORD 1
STENHAMMAR 1
STRADELLA 1
SULLIVAN 1
SVENDSEN 1
SWERTS 1
SZYMANOWSKI 1
TARTINI 1
TELEMANN 1
TOUCHEMOULIN 1
USTVOLSKAYA 1
WALPURGIS 1
WEILL 1
WESLEY S 1
WEYSE 1
YIU R 1
ZEMLINSKY 1

[Lat-Literal]

Here's the breakdown by broadcasts of 'complete' symphonies/sinfonias/sinfoniettas.

The overall total of 1079 is the lowest since I first started recording these figures in 2011.

The most broadcast symphonies were Prokofiev No 1 & surprisingly Beethoven No 4 with 16 complete broadcasts. Followed by Beethoven No 7, Sibelius No 2 & Tchaikovsky No 5 with 15 broadcasts.

F J HAYDN 97
MOZART W A 90
BEETHOVEN 84
SIBELIUS 56
MAHLER 52
DVORAK 39
TCHAIKOVSKY 36
SHOSTAKOVICH 35
BRAHMS 33
MENDELSSOHN 30
SCHUBERT 30
PROKOFIEV 27
BACH CPE 26
SCHUMANN 25
BRUCKNER 22
VAUGHAN WILLIAMS 13
BERLIOZ 12
NIELSEN 12
RACHMANINOV 12
STRAVINSKY 12
BRITTEN 10
ELGAR 10
ABEL 9
BOYCE 9
BACH J C 8
BERNSTEIN 8
COPLAND 7
KRAUS 7
MARTINU 7
BANTOCK 6
TIPPETT 6
GILSON 5
LUTOSLAWSKI 5
MESSIAEN 5
SAINT-SAENS 5
SCRIABIN 5
STRAUSS R 5
WALTON 5
ARNOLD 4
BACH JCF 4
BIZET 4
DOBRZYNSKI 4
M HAYDN 4
IVES 4
JIRANEK 4
MALISZEWSKI 4
MOYZES 4
SAINT-GEORGES 4
ANTHEIL 3
BENNETT R ROD 3
FODOR 3
GIPPS 3
GOUNOD 3
JANACEK 3
KUNZEN 3
PARRY 3
PEIRERA 3
SALIERI 3
WANSKI 3
ZIMMERMANN B A 3
ANDRICU 2
ARRIAGA 2
BACEWICZ 2
BACH W F 2
BERIO 2
BORODIN 2
BOYLE I 2
BRUCH 2
GLUCK 2
GORECKI 2
GOSSEC 2
GRIEG 2
HACZEWSKI 2
HARRIS 2
HERSCHEL 2
LANGGAARD 2
MATHIAS 2
MYSLIVECEK 2
NAUMANN 2
NORGARD 2
PART 2
PENDERECKI 2
ROMAN 2
SAMMARTINI 2
SCARLATTI D 2
SUMERA 2
TANAYEV 2
TORELLI 2
TUBIN 2
VIVALDI 2
WEBER 2
WIENIAWSKI J 2
ALBINONI 1
ALMEIDA 1
BAJAMONTI 1
BARBER 1
BEDFORD D 1
BOCCHERINI 1
BRIXI 1
CHADWICK 1
CHAUSSON 1
CHAVEZ 1
COWEN F 1
DEBUSSY 1
DONIZETTI 1
DUTTILEUX 1
EBERL 1
ENGEL 1
EYBLER 1
FARRENC 1
FASCH 1
FRANCK 1
FREDERICK THE GREAT 1
GLINKA 1
GOEHR A 1
GOULD M 1
HALVORSEN 1
HANSON 1
HINDEMITH 1
HODDINOTT 1
HOLST 1
HOOF 1
HYDE T 1
IVANOVS 1
JOUBERT 1
KAJANUS 1
KASHPEROVA 1
KASKI 1
KNUSSEN 1
LINEK 1
MANFREDINI 1
MANTZAROS 1
MAZZOLI M 1
MEALOR P 1
MEDER J G 1
MEHUL 1
MIELCK 1
PETTERSSON A 1
POULENC 1
RAFF 1
RAYCHEV 1
REICHA 1
SCHMIDT 1
SCHMITT F 1
SCIGALSKI 1
SILVESTROV 1
SIXTA 1
SOLNITZ 1
SORKOCEVIC 1
STANFORD 1
STENHAMMAR 1
STRADELLA 1
SULLIVAN 1
SVENDSEN 1
SWERTS 1
SZYMANOWSKI 1
TARTINI 1
TELEMANN 1
TOUCHEMOULIN 1
USTVOLSKAYA 1
WALPURGIS 1
WEILL 1
WESLEY S 1
WEYSE 1
YIU R 1
ZEMLINSKY 1

Not one by Harris.

There are a lot of ones and twos who I have never heard of - not sure if that is good or not good - and lots of zeros (ie absences) I know quite well.

I am just wondering because I don't have a general "feel" for these things, do forum members believe that Haydn and Mozart justify three times as many as almost anyone else?

(Or that CPE Bach needs 26 times more than, say, Hindemith and Barber?)

What is the logic?

[Suffolkcoastal]

There are two by Roy Harris, the usual 3rd was broadcast twice.

[Lat-Literal]

There are two by Roy Harris, the usual 3rd was broadcast twice.

Sorry - I missed that - quite tired today!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I am just wondering because I don't have a general "feel" for these things, do forum members believe that Haydn and Mozart justify three times as many as almost anyone else? (Or that CPE Bach needs 26 times more than, say, Hindemith and Barber?)
What is the logic?

Not sure about "logic", but I can think of a number of reasons why this might be so. For a start, there are a lot more symphonies by Haydn, Mozart, and CPE Bach than by either Hindemith or Barber - for another, a Symphony by the three Classical composers can be played by a Chamber orchestra and by a larger Symphony Orchestra; the C20 guys need the larger forces - many of the Classical Symphonies are shorter in duration, so can be used as "fillers" in a broadcast (and you can just play more in the time it takes for the later Symphonies - the first four symphonies by either Haydn or Mozart take up less time in total than Beethoven's Ninth, for example) - there are several HIPP ensembles that record and play Live the Early Symphonies, creating more material for broadcasts; no such ensembles keen to perform Hindemith or Barber - and Orchestras and conductors know at least some of the Haydn and Mozart Symphonies, and know that they will attract audiences (very important for funding-starved orchestras) which leaves less familiar repertoire largely left for programmes devoted to recordings (and many of those, as we have complained on the Forum oft and long, don't bother with longer works in full )

Individually, each of these points doesn't explain the situation - collectively (and there are probably other reasons that I haven't thought of) they add up to something that might do so.


(And, for my money at least, I have no doubt that the quality of the Symphonies of Haydn and Mozart more than "justify" their greater exposure than those of Hindemith and/or Barber. For me, it's not so the Classical repertoire that is taking up too much time that could be given to lesser-known composer [and isn't it fantastic that RW's contemptible neglect of Haydn has been overturned?] - it's the chatter and "R2" repertoire that's causing the "cluttering up".)

[Lat-Literal]

Not sure about "logic", but I can think of a number of reasons why this might be so. For a start, there are a lot more symphonies by Haydn, Mozart, and CPE Bach than by either Hindemith or Barber - for another, a Symphony by the three Classical composers can be played by a Chamber orchestra and by a larger Symphony Orchestra; the C20 guys need the larger forces - many of the Classical Symphonies are shorter in duration, so can be used as "fillers" in a broadcast (and you can just play more in the time it takes for the later Symphonies - the first four symphonies by either Haydn or Mozart take up less time in total than Beethoven's Ninth, for example) - there are several HIPP ensembles that record and play Live the Early Symphonies, creating more material for broadcasts; no such ensembles keen to perform Hindemith or Barber - and Orchestras and conductors know at least some of the Haydn and Mozart Symphonies, and know that they will attract audiences (very important for funding-starved orchestras) which leaves less familiar repertoire largely left for programmes devoted to recordings (and many of those, as we have complained on the Forum oft and long, don't bother with longer works in full )

Individually, each of these points doesn't explain the situation - collectively (and there are probably other reasons that I haven't thought of) they add up to something that might do so.


(And, for my money at least, I have no doubt that the quality of the Symphonies of Haydn and Mozart more than "justify" their greater exposure than those of Hindemith and/or Barber. For me, it's not so the Classical repertoire that is taking up too much time that could be given to lesser-known composer [and isn't it fantastic that RW's contemptible neglect of Haydn has been overturned?] - it's the chatter and "R2" repertoire that's causing the "cluttering up".)

Well, that's a very considered, detailed and persuasive post for which thanks. Do you not agree, though, that 97 for Haydn is a tad excessive when it could be 77 and not a lot would be lost? I have been having a look at the list of my favourites. Many of the big names are in there. A Panufnik, for example. Very short symphonies in the main but nothing doing on R3! Also, they have 32 from Havergal Brian, potentially. I accept that many last a day and also I have never got far beyond The Gothic. But a sudden other one could spark wild enthusiasm.

Have to admit to not having been aware of a David Bedford symphony, though - I am sorry to have missed the one hour out of the 8,760 hours it was on.

Also, I picked one name I didn't know entirely at random to see if neutrally I could genuinely say it deserved a place above my own pet preferences. I took Walpurgis. Honestly it was the first and the only one I chose. Then I Googled. Pardon my ignorance here but who is Walpurgis or is this some sort of reference to Goethe via Mendelssohn or something similar?

[Suffolkcoastal]

Well, that's a very considered, detailed and persuasive post for which thanks. Do you not agree, though, that 97 for Haydn is a tad excessive when it could be 77 and not a lot would be lost? I have been having a look at the list of my favourites. Many of the big names are in there. A Panufnik, for example. Very short symphonies in the main but nothing doing on R3! Also, they have 32 from Havergal Brian, potentially. I accept that many last a day and also I have never got far beyond The Gothic. But a sudden other one could spark wild enthusiasm.

Have to admit to not having been aware of a David Bedford symphony, though - I am sorry to have missed the one hour out of the 8,760 hours it was on.

Also, I picked one name I didn't know entirely at random to see if neutrally I could genuinely say it deserved a place above my own pet preferences. I took Walpurgis. Honestly it was the first and the only one I chose. Then I Googled. Pardon my ignorance here but who is Walpurgis or is this some sort of reference to Goethe via Mendelssohn or something similar?

Maria Antonia Walpurgis, Princess of Bavaria, Electress of Saxony - 1724-1780. The David Bedford symphony is only 20 minutes long. With Brian the majority of the 32 symphonies are less than 30 minutes long, No 22 at 9 minutes could easily fit into Breakfast or EC.