Bach

[jayne lee wilson]

One of the all-time great Bach records...(oh, you know it from the first notes........not worthy.......! Why isn't there a not-worthy emoticon here...?)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Art-Fugue-Scherchen/dp/B0000254NN/ref=sr_1_9?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1545841209&sr=1-9&keywords=scherchen+bach+vienna

Pricey, but it has been gathered into large DG/Westminster boxes so you may find it to stream somewhere...

[Padraig]

Could you say a little more about this CD, jlw. Intriguing so far.

[Dave2002]

I must admit though - sometimes when I do listen closely (with Richard Stokes' Complete Cantatas to hand) the particular death-haunted, death-obsessed, afterlife & resurrection-obsessed nature of the texts can seem slightly oppressive....

Aren't those themes significant parts of Christian faith? OK - we're supposed to be good while we live, but existence in some form is supposed to carry on when we die. Christianity isn't the only religion to have this notion. To object to the cantatas and other choral works by Bach does seem a trifle unfair, given the nature of the work he was doing. I am not sure that we really know anything about Bach's own beliefs, even though he set a lot of texts on religious themes. I'm willing to be corrected.

[Bryn]

Could you say a little more about this CD, jlw. Intriguing so far.

The thing, while it can be found in the DG "The Art of Hermann Scherchen" box, it does not appear on the DG site an I can find no sign of a download option from those vendors offering the CD box. There appear to be two alternative Scherchen recordings available, with the Toronto one being on YouTube.

[jayne lee wilson]

Could you say a little more about this CD, jlw. Intriguing so far.

Stereo recordings, in very good sound from the Mozartsaal in 1965. They marry a cool precision to an intense yet restrained spirituality, like Sirius glittering in the Winter sky... the ensembles are not really large, though you may find the tuttis in them a little too grand, if (like me, mostly) you have strong preferences for HIPPs...but there's lightness and playfulness too, in the wind counterpoints; and those irreplaceable Vienna strings.

Hermann Scherchen was a remarkable figure - part magus, part mathematician... I remain devoted to his Haydn and his Bach.

MCD - Millennium Classics - was short-lived label, beautifully produced with excellent transfers, which had an extensive Scherchen edition earlier this century, including his stereo Beethoven 3, 6 and 8. But you'll usually only find them in the larger Westminster/DG boxes now, some of which may be streamable...

[jayne lee wilson]

Aren't those themes significant parts of Christian faith? OK - we're supposed to be good while we live, but existence in some form is supposed to carry on when we die. Christianity isn't the only religion to have this notion. To object to the cantatas and other choral works by Bach does seem a trifle unfair, given the nature of the work he was doing. I am not sure that we really know anything about Bach's own beliefs, even though he set a lot of texts on religious themes. I'm willing to be corrected.

Not an objection, really.....Vide the conclusion to my post...#27....

[Padraig]

One of the all-time great Bach records...(oh, you know it from the first notes........

Thank you, jlw, and Bryn for the link.

I have listened to the Toronto performance (rehearsal) up to the beginning of the full broadcast. I have yet to hear that, which I shall do.
I am not at all averse to 'grandness' - but I would love to know if there is much to choose between Vienna and Toronto overall. Any help there jayne? or Bryn? In any event jayne, I don't think I'll ever reach your intensity of appreciation of music and artists and recordings, but I do like Bach in my own way and you only encourage me to think of acquiring yet another AoF - the only work of which I have several different versions.

[Darkbloom]

Well, that doesn't surprise me. I have never understood the adoration over Gould...his performances leave me totally unmoved, however much I try to listen to them.

I've loved Gould's playing for as long as I can remember but I quite understand why many dislike him. He went out of his way to antagonize people, and even the most devoted fan shakes their head sometimes at the daft things he used to say. But I can't think of another performer where you feel they are composing the music on the spot, for example his playing of the Sarabande in the Fourth Partita, or the spontaneity he gave to the Italian Concerto, particularly the final movement. He'll always divide people and I'm sure he wouldn't have had it any other way.

[jayne lee wilson]

Thank you, jlw, and Bryn for the link.

I have listened to the Toronto performance (rehearsal) up to the beginning of the full broadcast. I have yet to hear that, which I shall do.
I am not at all averse to 'grandness' - but I would love to know if there is much to choose between Vienna and Toronto overall. Any help there jayne? or Bryn? In any event jayne, I don't think I'll ever reach your intensity of appreciation of music and artists and recordings, but I do like Bach in my own way and you only encourage me to think of acquiring yet another AoF - the only work of which I have several different versions.

I've not (yet) heard the Toronto Bach, but for me there's a symbiotic bond between Scherchen and his Viennese players that is a rare and wonderful thing, a sheer sound I find especially, if indefinably.... soulful. You hear it in his Haydn recordings as well, e.g. the astonishingly intense No.49. Very La Passione, indeed.....
It has probably gone for ever - except on record.

Some of the Matthew-Passion arias are from another world, and intensely "from the heart - may it go directly to the heart" as well...
Try Richard Standen in Mache dich, mein herze, rein...
And give yourself ample recovery time...

***
Big fan of Glenn Gould, especially his Hindemith and Beethoven Sonatas (uniquely humorous & expressive OP.27 No1 etc)

[Darkbloom]

Big fan of Glenn Gould, especially his Hindemith and Beethoven Sonatas (uniquely humorous & expressive OP.27 No1 etc)

Not forgetting his Brahms Intermezzi. Surely even sufferers from advanced Gouldphobia can listen to that without putting their hands over their ears.

[Padraig]

I've not (yet) heard the Toronto Bach,

A taste.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s-coTlGgBU

[MickyD]

I've loved Gould's playing for as long as I can remember but I quite understand why many dislike him. He went out of his way to antagonize people, and even the most devoted fan shakes their head sometimes at the daft things he used to say. But I can't think of another performer where you feel they are composing the music on the spot, for example his playing of the Sarabande in the Fourth Partita, or the spontaneity he gave to the Italian Concerto, particularly the final movement. He'll always divide people and I'm sure he wouldn't have had it any other way.

Indeed, and how interesting to hear the thoughts of a Gould lover. It's my loss that I have never got the man under my skin.

[Bryn]

Indeed, and how interesting to hear the thoughts of a Gould lover. It's my loss that I have never got the man under my skin.

Much as I admire his playing, there can be little doubt that he all too often considered his own musical ideas far superior to those of the composers whose work he was performing. This was especially the case re. Beethoven. His 'Emperor' with Stocky is 'wrong', 'wrong', 'wrong' in so many ways, but i still love it.

[jayne lee wilson]

Thank you, jlw, and Bryn for the link.

I have listened to the Toronto performance (rehearsal) up to the beginning of the full broadcast. I have yet to hear that, which I shall do.
I am not at all averse to 'grandness' - but I would love to know if there is much to choose between Vienna and Toronto overall. Any help there jayne? or Bryn? In any event jayne, I don't think I'll ever reach your intensity of appreciation of music and artists and recordings, but I do like Bach in my own way and you only encourage me to think of acquiring yet another AoF - the only work of which I have several different versions.

On Qobuz I found the 8-11/12/1965 CBC Toronto CO recording of Scerchen's Art of Fugue, a Tahra transfer in rather distant noisy mono, which sounds older than the date suggests. It has a tentative feel to it, simply not on the same level as the Vienna stereo one, less confident or refined instrumentally and with little of the profound expressive intensities of the Mozartsaal recording.

The arrangements seem to be different, and the selections/order-of-play as well.

(Don't forget this marvel, one of my Records of the Year, and given a review of (deservedly) gushing enthusiasm by Charlotte Gardner in Gramophone, 1/19.)
https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/ba.../vl9fp8m2zwgkb
Truly special...

[Padraig]

On Qobuz I found the 8-11/12/1965 CBC Toronto CO recording of Scerchen's Art of Fugue, a Tahra transfer in rather distant noisy mono, which sounds older than the date suggests. It has a tentative feel to it, simply not on the same level as the Vienna stereo one, less confident or refined instrumentally and with little of the profound expressive intensities of the Mozartsaal recording.

The arrangements seem to be different, and the selections/order-of-play as well.

Thank you jlw. I think I've got the message. I am going for your recommendation of The Art of Fugue.I have to rely on others for the tech details - ordering etc. I'll post an appropriate message whenever.