Ralph Vaughan Williams Fourth Symphony

[richardfinegold]

RVW is one of my favorite Symphonists, but until last night, this work had eluded me. It was a piece that I respected more than loved. The last movement in particular Has always seemed to chug along and then just sort of stops. Recording by Boult, Bryden Thompson and Hickox had all sounded to me as cut from the same cloth.
Last night I heard it performed for the first time, with Carlos Kalman conducting the Grant Park Symphony, and it engrossed me. Kalman preceded it on the program with The Unanswered Question by Ives, and the launched into the RVW immediately without pause. The opening blast of the Symphony seemed to be the answer to the Ives question—a nice touch. Somehow the piece sounded less British and more mainstream European. The First movement had a tremendous energy, the slow movement with its walking bass line was haunting, and Kalmar shaped the Finale so that it really did build to a satisfying climax, without having gotten lost in the “sub climaxes” that preceded it.
I know that RVW detested the music of Mahler, but last night the parallels between this work and the M6 struck me for the first time.

[BBMmk2]

RVW is one of my favorite Symphonists, but until last night, this work had eluded me. It was a piece that I respected more than loved. The last movement in particular Has always seemed to chug along and then just sort of stops. Recording by Boult, Bryden Thompson and Hickox had all sounded to me as cut from the same cloth.
Last night I heard it performed for the first time, with Carlos Kalman conducting the Grant Park Symphony, and it engrossed me. Kalman preceded it on the program with The Unanswered Question by Ives, and the launched into the RVW immediately without pause. The opening blast of the Symphony seemed to be the answer to the Ives question—a nice touch. Somehow the piece sounded less British and more mainstream European. The First movement had a tremendous energy, the slow movement with its walking bass line was haunting, and Kalmar shaped the Finale so that it really did build to a satisfying climax, without having gotten lost in the “sub climaxes” that preceded it.
I know that RVW detested the music of Mahler, but last night the parallels between this work and the M6 struck me for the first time.

That makes sense. I'll have to try that one day!

Handley, Sir Andrew Davis are my favourites. Has Manze and Brabbins recorded it yet. I can't remember?

[Beef Oven!]

RVW is one of my favorite Symphonists, but until last night, this work had eluded me. It was a piece that I respected more than loved. The last movement in particular Has always seemed to chug along and then just sort of stops. Recording by Boult, Bryden Thompson and Hickox had all sounded to me as cut from the same cloth.
Last night I heard it performed for the first time, with Carlos Kalman conducting the Grant Park Symphony, and it engrossed me. Kalman preceded it on the program with The Unanswered Question by Ives, and the launched into the RVW immediately without pause. The opening blast of the Symphony seemed to be the answer to the Ives question—a nice touch. Somehow the piece sounded less British and more mainstream European. The First movement had a tremendous energy, the slow movement with its walking bass line was haunting, and Kalmar shaped the Finale so that it really did build to a satisfying climax, without having gotten lost in the “sub climaxes” that preceded it.
I know that RVW detested the music of Mahler, but last night the parallels between this work and the M6 struck me for the first time.

I’ve always loved this work but what really snapped it into focus for me was an utterly electric performance at a Prom concert about ten years ago. Off the top of my head I can’t name the performers!

But what really prompted me to post is your Mahler reference. It has never occurred to me and I don’t get it - but very interesting. Any chance of further explanation.

P.S. “when was the last time you listened to music with a flat belly” would make a great thread, IMO

[cloughie]

Rfg I too listened to No4 for 50 years and liked it but never loved it as much as 5,3 &2, but then I heard the Manze and it clicked, I know not why but it's there now!

[AmpH]

I can't say I have ever noticed any Mahlerian connections with RVW 4.

RVW's 1937 recording with the BBC SO ( Dutton ) positively crackles with energy and is the recording I would never want to be without, despite its age. I haven't heard any other recording which matches the fire and intensity of this performance.

I seem to remember that when No 4 was last considered as a BaL, Rob Cowan (?) chose the RPO / Berglund recording on EMI.

[rauschwerk]

Yes, Rob did choose Berglund. I bought it and learned that there are three ways to play the finale. One is to do as the composer does - to take it at the marked speed (very exciting) and accept that some passages will be messy. Another is to do as Berglund does - take it up to speed and slow down a bit when the going gets tough. The third way (Previn and others) is to take the whole thing under tempo. I find that a bit ponderous.

[cloughie]

I can't say I have ever noticed any Mahlerian connections with RVW 4.

RVW's 1937 recording with the BBC SO ( Dutton ) positively crackles with energy and is the recording I would never want to be without, despite its age. I haven't heard any other recording which matches the fire and intensity of this performance.

I seem to remember that when No 4 was last considered as a BaL, Rob Cowan (?) chose the RPO / Berglund recording on EMI.

I think from memory that Bernstein rattles through it quite convincingly.

[richardfinegold]

I’ve always loved this work but what really snapped it into focus for me was an utterly electric performance at a Prom concert about ten years ago. Off the top of my head I can’t name the performers!

But what really prompted me to post is your Mahler reference. It has never occurred to me and I don’t get it - but very interesting. Any chance of further explanation.

P.S. “when was the last time you listened to music with a flat belly” would make a great thread, IMO

Re Mahler. It’s probably a stretch on my part, but the martial opening of the RVW4 puts reminds me very much of the opening of M6. Both have amartial character that announces a conflict en Media Res, and one of awful destructive power. The finale of both works is launched by another martial theme that seems to be a variant of the martial themes in their respective first movements, and the march of destruc and fury seem to lash out everywhere, and in both finales there are several premature climaxes before the final, overwhelming ending. Both finales end with percussion whacks—Mahler with the (in)famous third hammer whack, RVW with a thwack of the side drum which seals the martial character of the piece and seems to deny peaceful resolution (such as the transcendent end of RVW5).

[Beef Oven!]

Re Mahler. It’s probably a stretch on my part, but the martial opening of the RVW4 puts reminds me very much of the opening of M6. Both have amartial character that announces a conflict en Media Res, and one of awful destructive power. The finale of both works is launched by another martial theme that seems to be a variant of the martial themes in their respective first movements, and the march of destruc and fury seem to lash out everywhere, and in both finales there are several premature climaxes before the final, overwhelming ending. Both finales end with percussion whacks—Mahler with the (in)famous third hammer whack, RVW with a thwack of the side drum which seals the martial character of the piece and seems to deny peaceful resolution (such as the transcendent end of RVW5).

Thanks rfg. At first, I'd agree it's a bit of a stretch, and M6 is inarguably different, but the observations you make are very interesting. RVW4 gets an airing with me fairly often, so il bear in mind your thoughts when I next listen

[BBMmk2]

Re Mahler. It’s probably a stretch on my part, but the martial opening of the RVW4 puts reminds me very much of the opening of M6. Both have amartial character that announces a conflict en Media Res, and one of awful destructive power. The finale of both works is launched by another martial theme that seems to be a variant of the martial themes in their respective first movements, and the march of destruc and fury seem to lash out everywhere, and in both finales there are several premature climaxes before the final, overwhelming ending. Both finales end with percussion whacks—Mahler with the (in)famous third hammer whack, RVW with a thwack of the side drum which seals the martial character of the piece and seems to deny peaceful resolution (such as the transcendent end of RVW5).

I’ve never thought of the opening like that before defy. Most interesting.

[richardfinegold]

I’ve never thought of the opening like that before defy. Most interesting.

Did you do a brass band transcription of one of the movements of M6?

[BBMmk2]

Did you do a brass band transcription of one of the movements of M6?

It was a concert band transcription of the 1st Movt from M's 6th,RFG.

[Lat-Literal]

Yes, I think there are similarities. It isn't cow music. But why do people enjoy works that encapsulate war without any obvious critique. Is it a little like enjoying cage fighting on TV? I sort of get the reverse anthropormorphism in an elite setting. It is an apparent refinement of instincts. But surely what is cerebral about the udder is that it just is rather than contrived?

[richardfinegold]

Yes, I think there are similarities. It isn't cow music. But why do people enjoy works that encapsulate war without any obvious critique. Is it a little like enjoying cage fighting on TV? I sort of get the reverse anthropormorphism in an elite setting. It is an apparent refinement of instincts. But surely what is cerebral about the udder is that it just is rather than contrived?

I am not sure that I am following your train of thought. Could you dumb it down for me?
I've always marveled at the description of the Third as Cowpat Music, even though the Composer himself labeled it the 'Pastoral' Symphony (I think). Perhaps it's knowing that the piece was Composed when he was an ambulance driver in the killing fields of WWI makes me marvel more at the nature of it. I hear it as a lament for a world that he knew was blown to smithereens, like many of the young men that he was carting around. The intimations of the far away storm in III for me are the premonitions that catastrophe is around the corner.
The Fourth to me doesn't glorify War (if that is what you were getting at, Lit). It seems to express anger at the World's failure to learn from one horrendous slaughter and know that second is one the way.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I am not sure that I am following your train of thought. Could you dumb it down for me?
I've always marveled at the description of the Third as Cowpat Music, even though the Composer himself labeled it the 'Pastoral' Symphony (I think). Perhaps it's knowing that the piece was Composed when he was an ambulance driver in the killing fields of WWI makes me marvel more at the nature of it. I hear it as a lament for a world that he knew was blown to smithereens, like many of the young men that he was carting around. The intimations of the far away storm in III for me are the premonitions that catastrophe is around the corner.
The Fourth to me doesn't glorify War (if that is what you were getting at, Lit). It seems to express anger at the World's failure to learn from one horrendous slaughter and know that second is one the way.

I think you have the measure of both these Symphonies, rfg. (I've suggested elsethread that a more appropriate title for RVW's Pastoral would be the Eroica. )