Ralph Vaughan Williams Fourth Symphony

[Lat-Literal]

I am not sure that I am following your train of thought. Could you dumb it down for me?
I've always marveled at the description of the Third as Cowpat Music, even though the Composer himself labeled it the 'Pastoral' Symphony (I think). Perhaps it's knowing that the piece was Composed when he was an ambulance driver in the killing fields of WWI makes me marvel more at the nature of it. I hear it as a lament for a world that he knew was blown to smithereens, like many of the young men that he was carting around. The intimations of the far away storm in III for me are the premonitions that catastrophe is around the corner.
The Fourth to me doesn't glorify War (if that is what you were getting at, Lit). It seems to express anger at the World's failure to learn from one horrendous slaughter and know that second is one the way.

Yes - I think you have convinced me. To have raised questions in regard to an RVW symphony when they could have more persuasively been raised about umpteen other composers of the 20th Century was never going to be adequately argued through by me. I just wonder, though, if the vast swaths of impressive but not especially easy on the ear music which is a representation of conflict (one could go almost anywhere with this but let us bring out a few names at random - Shostakovich, Weinberg, Penderecki - and I don't dislike any of them or seek to make this an Eastern European point any more than an RVW point) sit healthily as an epitome of what music is or can be with pastoralism as a requirement pushed somewhat further down? That is, particularly if the emotions involved are subject to individual interpretation. Isn't the listener in being impressed by war music vulnerable to being awestruck?

Many of the troops on their return chose not to talk about their experiences and found any answers that they needed in walks on the downs or the dales. They didn't in many cases have options. It was just how they responded emotionally. But I would suggest that in that sense of purity there was something inadvertently cerebral there, even if it was - and this might sound a bit daft - in the unthinking sight of sheep or a cow. As for RVW3, I agree that it is more than just pastoralism. Personally, I find its blend more affecting than the 4th. So many colours and themes interweave. But I would have difficulty in accepting unequivocal pastoralism in all of RVW's symphonies. For example, I hear a lot of pastoralism in "2" which has the sounds of traffic and Big Ben and is "by a Londoner". Hence, pastoralism is a strand in his writing which appears as much where it is unexpected as not appearing where it could be expected and that is precisely the point. The fleeting nature of it; the briefest glimpses; the elongated echoes in memories; and the symbolism linked to peace, a sense of self-location, albeit shifting; security; place; and time. The Tallis Fantasia - that fits the less complex stereotype for better or worse, depending on viewpoint - but none of the symphonies do imho.

[Suffolkcoastal]

The 4th is actually the most 'classical' of RVW's symphonies. Beethoven 5 is the clear inspiration, however what RVW delivers is virtually an anti-heroic 5th, seen through the eyes of a man who had seen the horrors of WW1 first hand, but also who was feeling an emotional frustration & anger at a personal/relationship level. Feeling almost imprisoned by the increasing disabilities of his wife, her overbearing relatives & demands, yet remaining devoted out of duty & love to remain with her & support her. The pent-up frustration explodes in this Symphony, giving vent to his feelings with both anger and an icy bleak coolness, with the motto theme finally devouring the symphony's other themes in the electrifying fugal epilogue.
I don't hear any foreboding of WWII in the work, though completed & 1st performed in 1935, a lot of it was composed between 1929-32. Something of RVW's personal life breaks through in Job & the Piano Concerto, is it a coincidence that the most 'flashy' music in Job is reserved for Satan, almost as if RVW is admiring his boldness.?

[edashtav]

The 4th is actually the most 'classical' of RVW's symphonies. Beethoven 5 is the clear inspiration, however what RVW delivers is virtually an anti-heroic 5th, seen through the eyes of a man who had seen the horrors of WW1 first hand, but also who was feeling an emotional frustration & anger at a personal/relationship level. Feeling almost imprisoned by the increasing disabilities of his wife, her overbearing relatives & demands, yet remaining devoted out of duty & love to remain with her & support her. The pent-up frustration explodes in this Symphony, giving vent to his feelings with both anger and an icy bleak coolness, with the motto theme finally devouring the symphony's other themes in the electrifying fugal epilogue.
I don't hear any foreboding of WWII in the work, though completed & 1st performed in 1935, a lot of it was composed between 1929-32. Something of RVW's personal life breaks through in Job & the Piano Concerto, is it a coincidence that the most 'flashy' music in Job is reserved for Satan, almost as if RVW is admiring his boldness.?

That’s a great contextual piece, many thanks, Sc.

[BBMmk2]

That’s a great contextual piece, many thanks, Sc.

Indeed, edashtav. Sc, JLW and Pabs, I would have up in the top three posters on these boards that I really do appreciate their knowledge.

[edashtav]

Just to add something I read in an old, provincial paper dated just before Adrian Boult’s first performance in 1934. The writer was enlarging on the topic of Motto theme (Tchaikovsky and Franck and RVW in his new F minor symphony) versus Epilogue (Arnold Bax and now RVW, with a nod?) and wrote something like “the motto theme announces a text for the orchestra to develop and comment upon, whereas an Epilgue is like a Learned Judge summing up themes in an elaborate “case”.”

[Lat-Literal]

The 4th is actually the most 'classical' of RVW's symphonies. Beethoven 5 is the clear inspiration, however what RVW delivers is virtually an anti-heroic 5th, seen through the eyes of a man who had seen the horrors of WW1 first hand, but also who was feeling an emotional frustration & anger at a personal/relationship level. Feeling almost imprisoned by the increasing disabilities of his wife, her overbearing relatives & demands, yet remaining devoted out of duty & love to remain with her & support her. The pent-up frustration explodes in this Symphony, giving vent to his feelings with both anger and an icy bleak coolness, with the motto theme finally devouring the symphony's other themes in the electrifying fugal epilogue.
I don't hear any foreboding of WWII in the work, though completed & 1st performed in 1935, a lot of it was composed between 1929-32. Something of RVW's personal life breaks through in Job & the Piano Concerto, is it a coincidence that the most 'flashy' music in Job is reserved for Satan, almost as if RVW is admiring his boldness.?

I still think the question "are we vulnerable to being awestruck?" applies. How - and I rather wish we were not focussed on RVW or specifically RVW4 - are we supposed to receive such an expression - sympathy? empathy? admiration for the creative ability? nothing of any emotion? - and will this vary according to who we the listeners are? - in a similar state? cosy in slippers in a grand mansion just about to pour another gin? highly political in a Stop the War sense? a classical composer or musician who is picking up on the finer points of the score?

I think I find admiration but I am not sure that it quite feels right given the subjects and the sensibilities involved. It would possibly not be much of an issue but nearly half of a long period of music was precisely this sort of thing. We were having lunch one day in the garden at the Harrow and there was a car crash immediately outside. Only 10% of us didn't run out to gawp - there were no fields around and nor was there sea so I looked at the sky while feeling what I assessed as unsettled enough. I accept 5% probably thought they could help.

[richardfinegold]

The 4th is actually the most 'classical' of RVW's symphonies. Beethoven 5 is the clear inspiration, however what RVW delivers is virtually an anti-heroic 5th, seen through the eyes of a man who had seen the horrors of WW1 first hand, but also who was feeling an emotional frustration & anger at a personal/relationship level. Feeling almost imprisoned by the increasing disabilities of his wife, her overbearing relatives & demands, yet remaining devoted out of duty & love to remain with her & support her. The pent-up frustration explodes in this Symphony, giving vent to his feelings with both anger and an icy bleak coolness, with the motto theme finally devouring the symphony's other themes in the electrifying fugal epilogue.
I don't hear any foreboding of WWII in the work, though completed & 1st performed in 1935, a lot of it was composed between 1929-32. Something of RVW's personal life breaks through in Job & the Piano Concerto, is it a coincidence that the most 'flashy' music in Job is reserved for Satan, almost as if RVW is admiring his boldness.?

I think that it is an oversimplification to state that the anger in this music is purely from either his private or personal life.
Composers will tend to be influenced by everything around them ( I am thinking of Shostakovich and his 10th, where his love life and the Soviet Politics of the time were reportedly equal influences, or the grimness of Sibelius 4, which was long attributed to his undergoing Cancer treatment during the composition but later biographers also attributed to his deteriorating marriage). And while the composition of RV4 may have occurred prior to Hitler gaining power, the World was clearly going to Hell in a Handbasket. Mussolini and the Japanese Fascists were firmly entrenched and rattling sabers; the Nazis and other German Nationalists were ascendent and the Weimar Republic was a clear failure; Stalin was starving the Ukraine and making a bad joke out of the concept of a Workers Paradise; and the Depression was in full throes and threatening to bury Capitalism

[BBMmk2]

I think that it is an oversimplification to state that the anger in this music is purely from either his private or personal life.
Composers will tend to be influenced by everything around them ( I am thinking of Shostakovich and his 10th, where his love life and the Soviet Politics of the time were reportedly equal influences, or the grimness of Sibelius 4, which was long attributed to his undergoing Cancer treatment during the composition but later biographers also attributed to his deteriorating marriage). And while the composition of RV4 may have occurred prior to Hitler gaining power, the World was clearly going to Hell in a Handbasket. Mussolini and the Japanese Fascists were firmly entrenched and rattling sabers; the Nazis and other German Nationalists were ascendent and the Weimar Republic was a clear failure; Stalin was starving the Ukraine and making a bad joke out of the concept of a Workers Paradise; and the Depression was in full throes and threatening to bury Capitalism

I watched a tv programme, about RVW and they did mention the fact, quite heavily so, that it does seem to be most likely as simply as that. Although, publicly, it was about the events and future events around Europe at the time.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think that saying that a Musical work as powerful as the RVW#4 is definitively "about" one specific non-Musical feature rather reduces its importance as a ... powerful Musical work. The composer's initial responses to such a feature (the threatening political situation; agonies in his emotional life; the local dry cleaners losing his favourite jacket ... ) might have sparked off the basic "mood" of the work (or not) - but this isn't why the Symphony is important. If you want the Political situation explored, read a history book - if you want the vagaries of a marriage explored, read a Mills & Boon novel. (And let's not forget that RVW himself described the opening as a reaction to the "shrieking chord" that opens the Finale of Beethoven's Ninth - something which I find magnificent: a composer responding positively to a work about which he had strong reservations.)

The extra-Musical ideas we "decide" upon tell us about ourselves and our responses to the Music - they don't say much else about the Music itself. There must have been scores (ho-ho) of Symphonies in which a composer was reacting to contemporary political events/marital difficulties/lost jackets that are uninteresting to anyone, because they aren't interesting works of Art. Stravinsky was right - Music doesn't and cannot "express" emotions; it can "only" (!) evoke them in the listener - something it clearly does in the case of a work such as the RVW#4.

For me, the biographical details aren't nearly as interesting as the Music itself: it's "about" f minor = what "makes" f minor? How does it relate to other keys? And how is it different from modes built on F, most notably the Phrygian mode, which creates the C - Db screech that opens the work, and which motivates the entire Symphony. (It's a Symphony "about" the minor second, if you like, in the same way the the Pastoral was "about" Thirds.) The Musical details, the pacing and placing of events - these are what grasp the listeners' attention and holds it throughout. Composers' ideas might be "sparked" by non-Musical occurrences, but it's what they "do" with sound that their work is really "about".

[Serial_Apologist]

Stravinsky was right - Music doesn't and cannot "express" emotions; it can "only" (!) evoke them in the listener - something it clearly does in the case of a work such as the RVW#4.

Hmmm. At the risk of being at cross-purposes, I would argue that music can and does express emotions - whether it be me reflecting in sympathy whatever I infer VW's may have been at the time of composing his Fourth, or consoling myself by discovering the appositeness of a partcular chord sequence when improvising at the piano in the wake of a personal loss. The musical utterance, couched in an idiomatic "vernacular" specific to its time and occasion, spells out "meaning" in the way it must have done when it was communicated to me in some recording or performance; and this is just another way of "getting across" - using assumedly commonly agreed tropes encapsulated in pitches arranged some way or other analogously with the way words might be, and likewise conveying "meanings" connecting me to other human beings expressing themselves through the codes, whether these be musical or linguistic, that people have devised as intermediators of what has been intelligeably encoded in that category of communication we use to order what might be orderable for purposes of immediate understanding and empathy known as "meaning". The fact that the whole process involves complex immediate processes of translating reality through words or musical pitches, I would argue, is no less "expressive" in either instance.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Just to avoid such cross-purpose misunderstandings that you suggest, S_A, I should clarify that I don't mean that listeners don't experience emotions as they listen to - or even remember - pieces of Music. My own experience of this as well as the descriptions from other listeners - not least on this Forum, frequently and every day - is quite enough to make me think that the experiencing of intense emotions when people listen to Music is as "universal" a phenomenon as we're likely to have. (And setting aside such points as the fact that "boredom" is an emotion. )

But the descriptions of these emotions also give evidence that these reactions - the specific emotions - originate in the listener, rather than in the sounds of the Music itself. Countless times I have read favourable reactions and responses to a work that I adore on this Forum, which communicate an emotional experience that I find barm ... err ... completely at odds with my own emotional reactions. (So that Music I have found exciting and exhilarating has been described as "terrifying" and/or "nihilistic" by other listeners, for example; or Music that speaks to me eloquently and gently of loss, others have heard - equally eloquently - as optimistic or doom-laden by other different listeners.)

The acoustic fact of the raw clash of pitches a minor second apart creates an energy that grabs people in completely different ways: but the specific emotion is a blank sheet that the listener fills in for him or herself - whether that response meets or is similar to those of others or not isn't important, nor are the non (or Extra-) -Musical "intentions" handy those might be on occasion to stop others insisting that their own reactions - RVW wanting to express his rage over Portsmouth losing the FA Cup in 1934, for example - are the "one true" ones. (It's equally obvious that RVW was a Man City fan, and the work is a jubilant celebration of their victory.)


(This post is dedicated to Edgleyrob, in the hope that it will so outrage him that he will feel impelled to rejoin us very, very soon. )

[Bryn]

I’ve always loved this work but what really snapped it into focus for me was an utterly electric performance at a Prom concert about ten years ago. Off the top of my head I can’t name the performers!

Could it have been just 6 years ago, i.e. the BBCSSO under Manze?

[Beef Oven!]

Could it have been just 6 years ago, i.e. the BBCSSO under Manze?

No, not that one. Ill see what google throws up.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

No, not that one. Ill see what google throws up.

Yan-Pascal Tortelier was in 2008.

[Beef Oven!]

Yan-Pascal Tortelier was in 2008.

Yes, I saw that. And I think it was that concert!

My memory tells me it was more than ten years ago.

Anyway, it was electrifying!