Daniele Gatti Sacked by the Concertgebouw

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  • greenilex
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 1626

    #31
    I think they prefer the music to take its shoes off at the door...

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    • richardfinegold
      Full Member
      • Sep 2012
      • 7828

      #32
      Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post
      It could be that they'll want a conductor who's going to change the direction of the RCO's core repertoire, which for example in its pre-Haitink days lent it a strong reputation for performances of French music. Everyone does Mahler now. Strangely, in a city where contemporary music generally has quite a high profile, the RCO probably plays less recent repertoire than even the London orchestras do.
      You would of course know about Contemporary Music than virtually most people here, or anywhere, but a few months ago I was considering buying a large collection issued by the Orchestra of recorded concerts, and I was impressed by the amount of New Music in the collection. It was certainly a much larger percentage of the total than what the big Orchestras here offer

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      • Sir Velo
        Full Member
        • Oct 2012
        • 3285

        #33
        Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post

        However, I hope that due care has been taken re the allegations. It's not completely unheard of for people to either misunderstand, or make false accusations.
        It has to be said that this sorry saga has been handled catastrophically by the RCO. Whatever the truth or otherwise of the allegations the orchestra's reputation has been tarnished irrevocably by this tawdry little tale. I'm surprised that the orchestra didn't go to Gatti and offer him the chance to resign on grounds of "ill health" or even "musical differences". If the claims were supportable then Gatti would surely have taken this option; his reputation and the orchestra's would have been saved this public mauling. If they're not completely watertight then Gatti may well be in a position to counter with a claim for unfair dismissal.

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        • Richard Barrett
          Guest
          • Jan 2016
          • 6259

          #34
          Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
          You would of course know about Contemporary Music than virtually most people here, or anywhere, but a few months ago I was considering buying a large collection issued by the Orchestra of recorded concerts, and I was impressed by the amount of New Music in the collection. It was certainly a much larger percentage of the total than what the big Orchestras here offer
          Actually you're right, as far as the 2000s are concerned - I lived just behind the Concertgebouw for most of the 1990s, went to many of their concerts and never heard anything particularly recent, but their series of live CDs made more recently does tell a somewhat different story, to my surprise. (Even if their idea of contemporary music is the "undisturbing for classical audiences" variety!)

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          • cloughie
            Full Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 22240

            #35
            Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post
            It could be that they'll want a conductor who's going to change the direction of the RCO's core repertoire, which for example in its pre-Haitink days lent it a strong reputation for performances of French music. Everyone does Mahler now. Strangely, in a city where contemporary music generally has quite a high profile, the RCO probably plays less recent repertoire than even the London orchestras do.
            I’m not sure how true this is. We are talking here about Van Beinum and Jochum - yes there was the odd Debussy recording, but the core German and Austrian composers were very much to the fore - Bruckner, Brahms very much to the fore!

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            • cloughie
              Full Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 22240

              #36
              Originally posted by HighlandDougie View Post
              That's an interesting suggestion - and he has conducted the orchestra reasonably recently. What I've heard on disc (Martinu etc) and from ORF concerts via 'Orchestra on Demand' has usually been interesting - he doesn't conduct on auto-pilot. But would he be able to take on the RCO's core repertoire - Mahler, Mahler and more Mahler - as well as the 3 Bs? They might go for Ivan Fischer pro tem as he is a frequent guest with the orchestra. Not, though, Simon Rattle as I seem to remember that he has only conducted them once and that that was not a marriage made in heaven. I'm probably completely wrong, though.

              Ivan Fischer might be a good fit, by no means old in conducting terms at 67, but maybe they would seek someone younger. Ilan Volkov made a good impression at BBCSO a few years ago, where is his career at the moment?
              Last edited by cloughie; 04-08-18, 10:59.

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              • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                Gone fishin'
                • Sep 2011
                • 30163

                #37
                Originally posted by Sir Velo View Post
                It has to be said that this sorry saga has been handled catastrophically by the RCO. Whatever the truth or otherwise of the allegations the orchestra's reputation has been tarnished irrevocably by this tawdry little tale. I'm surprised that the orchestra didn't go to Gatti and offer him the chance to resign on grounds of "ill health" or even "musical differences". If the claims were supportable then Gatti would surely have taken this option; his reputation and the orchestra's would have been saved this public mauling. If they're not completely watertight then Gatti may well be in a position to counter with a claim for unfair dismissal.
                Except that that type of "reputation-saving" sounds very much like how certain international charities mishandled "allegations" about their own staff in recent years.
                [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                • Bryn
                  Banned
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 24688

                  #38
                  Originally posted by cloughie View Post
                  I’m not sure how true this is. We are talking here about Van Beinum and Jochum - yes there was the odd Debussy recording, but the core German and Austrian composers were very much to the fore - Bruckner, Brahms very much to the fore!
                  And surely, Haitink did much more to promote Ravel and Debussy with this orchestra.

                  Comment

                  • Dave2002
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 18061

                    #39
                    Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                    Except that that type of "reputation-saving" sounds very much like how certain international charities mishandled "allegations" about their own staff in recent years.
                    And one very renowned orchestra appeared to keep some "common knowledge" under wraps for many years. Getting the balance right must be very difficult - not every accuser is justified, but keeping those in power in place in order to keep a high profile, and to ignore problems when they become apparent to organisations seems not to be a good strategy either these days.

                    As suggested earlier in this thread, musical ability and inspirational talent is not necessarily always commensurate with being a decent human being at all times.

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                    • greenilex
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 1626

                      #40
                      Always difficult to balance group loyalty/solidarity against demands of wider morality, when as in the case of medical institutions a musical entity feels that it and only it knows the score...

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                      • Petrushka
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 12389

                        #41
                        Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                        Except that that type of "reputation-saving" sounds very much like how certain international charities mishandled "allegations" about their own staff in recent years.
                        The RCO were between a rock and a hard place with this. Damned if they didn't take decisive action and damned if they did. My only concern, as in most of these cases, is that due process has flown out of the window. I agree with a previous suggestion that Gatti should have been forced to resign for reasons of 'musical difficulties' which would have been close enough to the truth, I think. If Gatti broke any laws then due process should be followed.
                        "The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink

                        Comment

                        • Richard Barrett
                          Guest
                          • Jan 2016
                          • 6259

                          #42
                          Originally posted by cloughie View Post
                          I’m not sure how true this is. We are talking here about Van Beinum and Jochum - yes there was the odd Debussy recording, but the core German and Austrian composers were very much to the fore - Bruckner, Brahms very much to the fore!
                          Van Beinum was also very involved in French music, wasn't he? Well, I'm a bit out of my depth here, maybe I should stop digging...

                          Comment

                          • Beef Oven!
                            Ex-member
                            • Sep 2013
                            • 18147

                            #43
                            Gatti is a victim of racism. A culturally insensitive handling of this issue.

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                            • Dave2002
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 18061

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Petrushka View Post
                              I agree with a previous suggestion that Gatti should have been forced to resign for reasons of 'musical difficulties' which would have been close enough to the truth, I think.
                              Sorry, I don't agree with that. "Musical difficulties" may be a justifiable reason, but not as a cover up for something else. It seems fairly clear why the RCO has decided to terminate the contract. Presumably they consulted sufficiently widely to be sure of their grounds. If they'd wanted to terminate for musical reasons they might have been able to do so earlier, or simply wait.

                              If there was a "rush to judgement" then that might be seen as a failing - ideally to have been avoided.

                              Comment

                              • Petrushka
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 12389

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                                Sorry, I don't agree with that. "Musical difficulties" may be a justifiable reason, but not as a cover up for something else. It seems fairly clear why the RCO has decided to terminate the contract. Presumably they consulted sufficiently widely to be sure of their grounds. If they'd wanted to terminate for musical reasons they might have been able to do so earlier, or simply wait.

                                If there was a "rush to judgement" then that might be seen as a failing - ideally to have been avoided.
                                Sorry I meant 'musical differences' - must have been the heat. It's been clear for some time (see the thread for the Bruckner 9 Prom last September if in doubt) that things were not going well between Gatti and the RCO. I attended their Prom the following evening, a routine performance of the Mahler 4 that never came to life. The Bruckner was simply atrocious.

                                Richardfinegold's comment above that the RCO seized the opportunity offered while the going was good doesn't seem that unlikely to me. In addition, some arts organisations have been slow to act in cases of abuse so the decisive action from the RCO in the wake of the Washington Post article is significant.
                                Last edited by Petrushka; 05-08-18, 14:33.
                                "The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink

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