Composers quoting other composers

[Flay]

It was Tom Service, I think, who did a "so you think Mahler is boring".

This one?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09h64g4

I'll have a listen tomorrow

[Lat-Literal]

This one?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09h64g4

I'll have a listen tomorrow

Yes.

That is exactly it and I recommend it.

My leanings musically aren't Austro-German and I struggle with his symphonies (while liking his Lieder) but it helped me - a springboard I can return to if/when I am ready.

Having said as much, I sense that you don't need to be converted.

[MrGongGong]

There is this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73z3cdoDlis

and this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJFuVhsemVs

and even this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp_skISc36U @ 3:07

or even this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjgm3xHr96Q

and so on and so on and so on

[Petrushka]

Judging from the number of contributions so far to this thread, would it be quicker to name those composers who never quoted another?

[Bryn]

There is this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73z3cdoDlis

and this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJFuVhsemVs

and even this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp_skISc36U @ 3:07

or even this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjgm3xHr96Q

and so on and so on and so on

One of the more blatant ones:

[MrGongGong]

Thanks

I've been making a collection of these for "pedagogical porpoises"

[Sir Velo]

Clearly Mahler was poking fun at Brahms in the opening bars of his 3rd. But why?

Pure speculation but Brahms' response to GM's good pal Rott's first symphony may have had something to do it.

[Richard Barrett]

I don't see Mahler as "poking fun" at Brahms with the beginning of his 3rd. I wouldn't even go so far as to claim the similarity between the themes is necessarily deliberate on Mahler's part, but if it is, I don't think much can be said categorically about the motivation behind it. Many of Mahler's themes sound as if they come from somewhere else, and some of them (like those from Rott and Wagner) clearly do. If a symphony is to "contain the whole world", or whatever it was he said exactly, it must necessarily "contain" all other music as well. Maybe Mahler is looking past Brahms to the Beethoven theme that Brahms had in mind... who knows? The position of this theme at the opening of Mahler's 3rd, its instrumentation and its general expressive quality don't sound like "poking fun" to me, they sound more like dipping into the collective thematic consciousness, so to speak, coming up with something that is indeed reminiscent of someone else's theme, and thinking something like "I don't care if these notes have been used before", similarly to the finale of the 7th being somehow indifferent to its obvious origins in Wagner. I don't know whether I'm expressing all of this very well. "Quotation" can't always be reduced to a single or simple interpretation.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Er… the Beethoven and Brahms themes have the following in common:

Both in 4/4 time (like 99% of chart music)
Both use crotchets and minims, with the occasional quaver
Both in major keys
Bits of it work in dodgy counterpoint

Hrrmph. Maybe not.

[Lat-Literal]

Thanks

I've been making a collection of these for "pedagogical porpoises"

That list is extraordinary.

Just playing the motif in my head, I found that I was hearing the verse not the chorus of "All You Need Is Love".

Is there any scope for that one to be included or is it overly imaginative?

I haven't literally played it this morning in case it proves me hopelessly wrong.

(Of course, many of us know of some more obvious references in 1970s pop records to other classical music - Could It Be Magic, All By Myself, Lady Lynda and Joybringer, among them and there are masses of earlier things such as Stranger in Paradise, Nut Rocker, etc. Plus a bit later - 1990s - it's The Farm's All Together Now. The 2000s are not learned enough for it.)

[cloughie]

That list is extraordinary.

Just playing the motif in my head, I found that I was hearing the verse not the chorus of "All You Need Is Love".

Is there any scope for that one to be included or is it overly imaginative?

I haven't literally played it this morning in case it proves me hopelessly wrong.

(Of course, many of us know of some more obvious references in 1970s pop records to other classical music - Could It Be Magic, All By Myself and Joybringer, among them)

I am sure I am not the first on these boards to link Bruckner 5th to White Stripes ‘Seven Nation Army’ and hence to Jeremy Corbyn.

[Lat-Literal]

I am sure I am not the first on these boards to link Bruckner 5th to White Stripes ‘Seven Nation Army’ and hence to Jeremy Corbyn.

Fair enough but that was early 2002 so it only just scrapes in. Also, Jack White is unusual for a modern rock star in knowing his music history, and even more so on the blues side.

Re world music, this (1983/1987) was perhaps one of the more controversial moments - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_Rock - McLaren also had his own "Madam Butterfly".

[cloughie]

Fair enough but that was early 2002 so it only just scrapes in. Also, Jack White is unusual for a modern rock star in knowing his music history, and even more so on the blues side.

Re world music, this (1983/1987) was perhaps one of the more controversial moments - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_Rock - McLaren also had his own "Madam Butterfly".

JW was classically trained, so he knew what he was nicking, as I do some other film, TV and incidental music for whatever occasion. Get the tune, change a few notes and bingo!

[ahinton]

I don't see Mahler as "poking fun" at Brahms with the beginning of his 3rd. I wouldn't even go so far as to claim the similarity between the themes is necessarily deliberate on Mahler's part, but if it is, I don't think much can be said categorically about the motivation behind it. Many of Mahler's themes sound as if they come from somewhere else, and some of them (like those from Rott and Wagner) clearly do. If a symphony is to "contain the whole world", or whatever it was he said exactly, it must necessarily "contain" all other music as well. Maybe Mahler is looking past Brahms to the Beethoven theme that Brahms had in mind... who knows? The position of this theme at the opening of Mahler's 3rd, its instrumentation and its general expressive quality don't sound like "poking fun" to me, they sound more like dipping into the collective thematic consciousness, so to speak, coming up with something that is indeed reminiscent of someone else's theme, and thinking something like "I don't care if these notes have been used before", similarly to the finale of the 7th being somehow indifferent to its obvious origins in Wagner. I don't know whether I'm expressing all of this very well. "Quotation" can't always be reduced to a single or simple interpretation.

Very well said!

[Lat-Literal]

Thanks

I've been making a collection of these for "pedagogical porpoises"

It's the part that goes......

There's nothing you can do that can't be done
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy
Nothing you can make that can't be made
No one you can save that can't be saved
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time
It's easy

…...I'm pretty sure that in its progression (slight), it's that Sibelius swan again (ish).