Composers quoting other composers

[Serial_Apologist]

RVW originally quoted quite clearly from the finale of Bax's 3rd in his own piano concerto. He then revised most of it out, but you can still hear echoes (final section of the concerto).

There's a story that RVW told Howells that he (VW) had nicked an idea from the latter's "Hymnus Paradisi", but when the two of them surfed through the score of the work in question, neither could find it. It seems somehow typical or vaughan Williams's generosity of spirit: we know that Howells originally meant keeping his score in manuscript as an unperformed tribute to his son, who had tragically died in childhood, and that VW had persuaded him to have it performed.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Strauss quotes Bruch Violin Concerto (2nd movement) & Beethoven 5th Symphony (finale coda) in his Alpine Symphony - the "summit" and "climbing" themes.

[Richard Tarleton]

Strauss quotes Bruch Violin Concerto (2nd movement) & Beethoven 5th Symphony (finale coda) in his Alpine Symphony - the "summit" and "climbing" themes.

Doesn't he also - I keep meaning to check this out whenever I listen to one or the other, , you're the best person to ask - quote that falling figure from Liszt's Les jeux d'eau a la Villa d'Este? - or am I making this up, entirely possible?

[Pabmusic]

Some great contributions to this thread.... but this one is especially interesting to me, knowing all the pieces but never having spotted any of the quotations!!

I'm in bed at the monent, but tomorrow I'll identify the passages for you.

[Pabmusic]

Ahem. Don't you mean Lehar, re. the Bartok?

No, Bryn - it's the long sequential passage in which (?) German tanks roll on and on. But it does sound like Lehar (maybe that's what Bartok was getting at). In any case, Bartok wasn't impressed. That's why you get the rasberry on the bass trombone.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Martinu uses the Beethoven 5/BBC wartime motif in the Memorial to Lidice - very prominently too.
And a glance through the thread failed to spot Bartok's quote from DSCH Leningrad, which is used rudely in the Concerto for Orchestra.

Speaking of Martinu and DSCH - the Soviet composer's "signature motto" (transposed down a major third) is very clearly belted out in the Second Movement of the Czech's Sixth Symphony.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

No, Bryn - it's the long sequential passage in which (?) German tanks roll on and on. But it does sound like Lehar (maybe that's what Bartok was getting at). In any case, Bartok wasn't impressed.

So, perhaps we should have said that in his Seventh Symphony, Shostakovich quotes Lehar (the "Maxim's" tune from The Merry Widow - Maxim being the name of Dmitri's son)?

[Pabmusic]

So, perhaps we should have said that in his Seventh Symphony, Shostakovich quotes Lehar (the "Maxim's" tune from The Merry Widow - Maxim being the name of Dmitri's son)?

Oh that's good.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

So, perhaps we should have said that in his Seventh Symphony, Shostakovich quotes Lehar (the "Maxim's" tune from The Merry Widow - Maxim being the name of Dmitri's son)?

Oh yes! I'd never noticed that one.

[Bryn]

No, Bryn - it's the long sequential passage in which (?) German tanks roll on and on. But it does sound like Lehar (maybe that's what Bartok was getting at). In any case, Bartok wasn't impressed.

But the point is that the repeated motif in the Shostakovich (and the Bartok) is widely held to be a reference to Hitler's love of the Lehar. The story of Bartok's use being aimed at Shostakovich is apocryphal. There is no direct record of Bartok having assertaed such. Antal Dorati made a somewhat equivocal assertion that Bartok did not know the Merry Widow, so the tilt must have been at Shostakovish. However, Bartok's son Peter is quoted as stating "one thing is certain, my father was not quoting the symphony- he was quoting from a cabaret song." Again, why would a confirmed anti-Nazi like Bartok have chosen to mock what was clearly seen as an anti-Nazi work by Shostakovich?

[Nick Armstrong]

Speaking of Martinu and DSCH - the Soviet composer's "signature motto" (transposed down a major third) is very clearly belted out in the Second Movement of the Czech's Sixth Symphony.

Yes! And the most moving use of DSCH for me, more of a statement of solidarity than a mere quote, is the use by Britten of the signature motto repeatedly in the section of Rejoice in the Lamb about the protagonist "at variance" with the authorities, beaten and accused of madness:

For I am under the same accusation
With my Savior,
For they said,
He is besides himself.
For the officers of the peace
Are at variance with me,
And the watchman smites me
With his staff.
For the silly fellow, silly fellow,
Is against me,
And belongeth neither to me
Nor to my family.

The four syllables of "silly fellow" are set explicitly to the DSCH signature motto (not sure about transposition etc issues, but it's the motto alright)....

[Pabmusic]

But the point is that the repeated motif in the Shostakovich (and the Bartok) is widely held to be a reference to Hitler's love of the Lehar. The story of Bartok's use being aimed at Shostakovich is apocryphal. There is no direct record of Bartok having assertaed such. Antal Dorati made a somewhat equivocal assertion that Bartok did not know the Merry Widow, so the tilt must have been at Shostakovish. However, Bartok's son Peter is quoted as stating "one thing is certain, my father was not quoting the symphony- he was quoting from a cabaret song." Again, why would a confirmed anti-Nazi like Bartok have chosen to mock what was clearly seen as an anti-Nazi work by Shostakovich?

Well, that's certainly given it a new layer of interest for me. Thanks.

[rauschwerk]

Yes! And the most moving use of DSCH for me, more of a statement of solidarity than a mere quote, is the use by Britten of the signature motto repeatedly in the section of Rejoice in the Lamb about the protagonist "at variance" with the authorities, beaten and accused of madness:

For I am under the same accusation
With my Savior,
For they said,
He is besides himself.
For the officers of the peace
Are at variance with me,
And the watchman smites me
With his staff.
For the silly fellow, silly fellow,
Is against me,
And belongeth neither to me
Nor to my family.

The four syllables of "silly fellow" are set explicitly to the DSCH signature motto (not sure about transposition etc issues, but it's the motto alright)....

Yes, but the DSCH motto had not yet appeared in Shotakovich's own music!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes! And the most moving use of DSCH for me, more of a statement of solidarity than a mere quote, is the use by Britten of the signature motto repeatedly in the section of Rejoice in the Lamb about the protagonist "at variance" with the authorities, beaten and accused of madness:

For I am under the same accusation
With my Savior,
For they said,
He is besides himself.
For the officers of the peace
Are at variance with me,
And the watchman smites me
With his staff.
For the silly fellow, silly fellow,
Is against me,
And belongeth neither to me
Nor to my family.

The four syllables of "silly fellow" are set explicitly to the DSCH signature motto (not sure about transposition etc issues, but it's the motto alright)....

[Nick Armstrong]

Yes, but the DSCH motto had not yet appeared in Shotakovich's own music!

Yes I looked up the dates too... Well the 8th was the same year as Rejoice in the Lamb. Were BB and DSCH mates yet? Maybe it was an 'in joke' before Shostakovich started deploying it his pieces?