Composers quoting other composers

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But then Maurice was not acute enough to sue from the grave! !

He wouldn't need to. Cats was first performed in 1981 - and Ravel's copyright expired in 1987 (and re-entered copyright from 1995-2007).

Too late now, though.

[ahinton]

He wouldn't need to. Cats was first performed in 1981 - and Ravel's copyright expired in 1987 (and re-entered copyright from 1995-2007).

Too late now, though.

I'm not so sure about that. I imagine that if Ravel could do this he might have a case on a retrospective basis in that the plagiarism occurred when his work was still in copyright and performance/recording/broadcast royalties would have been generated both during that period and from 1995-2007 when his work reacquired copyright status, whilst a barrister might deem such an application to be out of time at this point, that might be the only possible obstruction...

[Richard Barrett]

"Bastard. It probably is actionable. It really is! But I think that life's too long to bother with suing Andrew f*cking Lloyd Webber. I think that might make me really gloomy." R Waters

Surely he meant too short?

I've had pages from my scores lifted and distorted to form what another "composer" then claimed were his own graphic scores, without my permission being sought (I might well have given it actually), but in the end I felt more sorry for than angry with the perpetrator. Mind you if he'd made as much money out of plagiarising me as ALW did from Pink Floyd I might feel differently!

But plagiarism wasn't really the subject of this thread. There'll always be people who steal ideas as a a substitute for having their own. But quotation is a different thing. I guess it goes back to the use of plainsong as the basis of polyphonic music in the Middle Ages.

[Lat-Literal]

Surely he meant too short?

I've had pages from my scores lifted and distorted to form what another "composer" then claimed were his own graphic scores, without my permission being sought (I might well have given it actually), but in the end I felt more sorry for than angry with the perpetrator. Mind you if he'd made as much money out of plagiarising me as ALW did from Pink Floyd I might feel differently!

But plagiarism wasn't really the subject of this thread. There'll always be people who steal ideas as a a substitute for having their own. But quotation is a different thing. I guess it goes back to the use of plainsong as the basis of polyphonic music in the Middle Ages.

Deliberate quotation in small measure is also closely linked to the modern phenomenon of sampling. I think that the comments of RVW mentioned above are typically sound especially in providing a broader social context and I feel that the (a)morality largely depends on extent. But elsewhere, there are all sorts of grey areas. For example, there is many a time when a piano concerto is described as a poor imitation of Rachmaninov without there being any connection other than in style. Plus there is the aspect that is the unanswered question. Was it deliberate or not? I am particularly fond of suggesting that the opening notes and some other - interweaving - parts of Harris 11 are the Beatles and I'd like to think they were chosen deliberately for symbolising the sixties. But I guess we will never know when that sort of thing arises. It is also in those instances so innovative that it might as well not be a quotation.

[Petrushka]

Stravinsky Petrushka, reminds me of that tune, folk tune. I know it as The Jingling Jangling Scarecrow, A’s does. Beethoven PC 1.

Stravinsky uses a folk song called 'Along the Peterskaya Road' in Petrushka as well as quotes from Josef Lanner's waltzes, Der Romantiker and Hofballtänze.

(My favourite pinching of a Russian folk song is Stenka Razin as used by The Seekers in The Carnival is Over - a wonderful tune!)

[cloughie]

One could cite examples too numerous to list of quotes in Prog Rock, but for me the very worst of all had to be the suite entitled "The Devil's Triangle", from King Crimson's "In The Wake of Poseidon", with its laborious and heavily over-Mellotronicised plagiarization of the Mars movement of "The Planets", right down to the rhythmic underpinning.

What "on earth" (?) was I doing giving such self-important over-inflated stuff my attention in the early 1970s?

I suspect that could have been the Greg Lake influence - he and Keith Emerson 'used' classical music a lot in ELP, as indeed did KE in the Nice before that. That selt-important over-inflated stuff was all part of the evolution of pop music and of the musical minds of our late teens and early twenties! I think at the time I welcomed Prog with open arms whilst at the same time time being somewhat purist about the abuse of classical music - now I'm maybe a little more accepting.

[MrGongGong]

Surely he meant too short?

I've had pages from my scores lifted and distorted to form what another "composer" then claimed were his own graphic scores, without my permission being sought (I might well have given it actually), but in the end I felt more sorry for than angry with the perpetrator. Mind you if he'd made as much money out of plagiarising me as ALW did from Pink Floyd I might feel differently!

But plagiarism wasn't really the subject of this thread. There'll always be people who steal ideas as a a substitute for having their own. But quotation is a different thing. I guess it goes back to the use of plainsong as the basis of polyphonic music in the Middle Ages.

Indeed
It does strike me as a particularly culturally specific thing to Western Music though
when I work with some musicians from other traditions the notion of a "composition" being owned by an individual isn't always present.

[Serial_Apologist]

Indeed
It does strike me as a particularly culturally specific thing to Western Music though
when I work with some musicians from other traditions the notion of a "composition" being owned by an individual isn't always present.

Once composition was written down, and that version seen by composer-as-businessperson, rather than gifter to a community of which they are organicallly a part, as his or her "property" to be defended from all takers, it fitted with the capitalist idea of music as saleable product.

I figure what you are saying is that music does not fulfil this particularized function in other cultures where it has partly circumvented commodification?

This is not a criticism of a composer's need to copyright his or her composition, but of the relations of production and sale in which s/he is forced to operate, unless collectively we can devise something that fits composing back into its once upon a time community setting.

[Richard Barrett]

Indeed
It does strike me as a particularly culturally specific thing to Western Music though
when I work with some musicians from other traditions the notion of a "composition" being owned by an individual isn't always present.

It's really a culturally specific thing to Western music since the mid 18th century, in other words since copyright law became widespread and musical compositions could in a legal sense be "owned". The idea of "intellectual property" from which profit can be extracted is really a cornerstone of capitalism, although of course it's getting a lot less easy to enforce in music than used to be the case, which I think can be seen as opening opportunities. (And learning something important from other traditions!)

[MrGongGong]

Once composition was written down, and that version seen by composer-as-businessperson, rather than gifter to a community of which they are organicallly a part, as his or her "property" to be defended from all takers, it fitted with the capitalist idea of music as saleable product.

I figure what you are saying is that music does not fulfil this particularized function in other cultures where it has partly circumvented commodification?

This is not a criticism of a composer's need to copyright his or her composition, but of the relations of production and sale in which s/he is forced to operate, unless collectively we can devise something that fits composing back into its once upon a time community setting.

I think for some musics the idea of a "composition" doesn't make sense not that it is an "improvisation" either.
It does (as RB points out) make it tricky to earn £ from the activity

[Lat-Literal]

I suspect that could have been the Greg Lake influence - he and Keith Emerson 'used' classical music a lot in ELP, as indeed did KE in the Nice before that. That selt-important over-inflated stuff was all part of the evolution of pop music and of the musical minds of our late teens and early twenties! I think at the time I welcomed Prog with open arms whilst at the same time time being somewhat purist about the abuse of classical music - now I'm maybe a little more accepting.

I like the honesty of your post. When I walked into my interview at an independent school in 1974 - gaining a paying pass which I got on the basis of my replies although it was totally unaffordable so that only the subsequent free council pass saw me through - I was asked about my love of music which I had put on my form. Pop music, presumably, they said. Not wholly I replied uncertainly but then I was asked to name an example of classical music I liked. Being the twit that I was and am, I completely forgot about my involvement in Copland - perhaps it had been just music to me at that time - and replied Mozart and then when asked which piece I could name I said "40". "Oh the 40th Symphony" they said, warming to the idea that the plebs might not be all that awful. What they didn't know and what I did know was that I had a lot to thank Waldo de Los Rios for, not that it made any key difference.

Anyhow, we were shocked by the posters on our arrival put up by the 6th Form. Labour - when we thought we had moved a bit above that sort of thing and it symbolised the unwashed. Then once I was there, it came to the annual event that was the Assembly being taken over for one morning by the 6th Form. This is vivid, First, it was the two fingers up to banking Dads of Brain Salad Surgery instead of hymns. This obviously prompted a change so next it was a rather late Superstition - bad and black - in the hands of only 6th Form Christians. Ultimately it was One Rule For You by "Christian" band After the Fire from my own 6th Form when even I agreed with a Christian mate to repetitively ring up Roger Scott's People's Choice and make it number one in London for that day. A successful experiment in hype from our base in South Cwoydon. Ultimately, I had to assess the likes of ELP in my own mind. One which wasn't rebelling against any class background which I would be expected to join and do so easily. I couldn't join it or make that transition so it didn't apply. And in that open context without any social connotations, I came to view it all not without affection. I had always of course liked a fanfare for the common man and I still believe in Father Christmas.

The moment in '79 when a hundred 16 year old Christians, atheists and agnostics joined forces to overpower London and corporate radio; it was No 1 the night before the Assembly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ERZW14ggHM

Could have been my coming of age but it wasn't...I didn't want it to be....in those days, it wasn't Punt and Dennis - it was Punt and Nelson and Nelson, religious, especially pushed it: also the Graystone people who are often now on Radio 4's Thought for the Day or whatever; I sat next to Punt in English - we didn't talk; my mate Nick became a vicar in Portsmouth.

This was utterly ludicrous in my humble opinion:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/07/men-at-work-lose-appeal

(The Jehovahs Witness woman turned up today unexpectedly - there is a curious attraction from her that I have rarely seen - we both know it; it's in the eyes and a trifle worrying)

[Flay]

Clearly Mahler was poking fun at Brahms in the opening bars of his 3rd. But why?

[Lat-Literal]

Clearly Mahler was poking fun at Brahms in the opening bars of his 3rd. But why?

Isn't Mahler a bit like that?

The unexpected humourist - a bit of a precursor to Fluxus - but you have to know it to know it?

It was Tom Service, I think, who did a "so you think Mahler is boring".

The answer - I was half convinced - seemed to be that there were inordinate riddles.

[teamsaint]

(The Jehovahs Witness woman turned up today unexpectedly - there is a curious attraction from her that I have rarely seen - we both know it; it's in the eyes and a trifle worrying)

the other sign of course is your knees turning to jelly....
Anyway, loved your hype story. I may try to use it in some way at work.Proper old fashioned hype, that.

Although interestingly, as it goes, it seems that even in this digital age, sales figures from certain outlets are weighted disproportionately when compiling charts. I really don't know why this needs to be the case.

[Lat-Literal]

the other sign of course is your knees turning to jelly....
Anyway, loved your hype story. I may try to use it in some way at work.Proper old fashioned hype, that.

Although interestingly, as it goes, it seems that even in this digital age, sales figures from certain outlets are weighted disproportionately when compiling charts. I really don't know why this needs to be the case.

Why thank you teamsaint. You remind me of another friend, Chris, who is a Saints supporter but we have lost touch. We used to swap stories about being the freebies at Independents - he in Southampton - and the similarity was uncanny. No achievement in the workplace for either of us but he was much brighter than me, went to Oxford, set crossword puzzles for the Australian Times and most importantly was kind though of ill health. I really liked him and had the utmost respect. Roger Scott is a broadcasting hero of mine, not that it sits well with The Clash. It was daily, that, and wholly on the phone votes at 5pm. I followed his son for a while - Canada - who sounded so similar (Rog himself cut his teeth there) - and with whom there were personal difficulties. We weren't to know. Both died tragically young - but I can separate these things out on the basis that entertainment, enthusiasm and presentation is all.