Composers quoting other composers

[rauschwerk]

The first performance of the 8th in the West was given in Boston in April 1944. By this time, Britten was back in the UK. He was not to meet Shostakovich until 1959 in London.

The 'DSCH' motto begins on F sharp in the Britten not D.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

http://dschjournal.com/dsch-motif

[rauschwerk]

In the Finale of his first piano concerto, Shostakovich quotes the opening of Haydn's piano sonata in D, Hob. 16:37 (Landon 50). In the mad cadenza near the end, there is supposed to be a plethora of quotes, including Beethoven's Rondo a Capriccio, but I'm blowed if I can make any of them out!

[rauschwerk]

http://dschjournal.com/dsch-motif

Pure speculation, imho.

[Dave2002]

Wow, look, I made an error! I used the wrong 'fare'!

Brilliant Dave, absolutely brilliant of you to spot it and point it out

Don't worry about that. This "donkey" - see JLW's comment - is still figuring out why so many people think Brahms 1 has the same tune as Beethoven's 9th. It's similar in some ways - I agree - but not the same.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Pure speculation, imho.

I agree - but interesting that the connection has occurred elsewhere, too.

[Barbirollians]

Andrew Lloyd webber does a lot of it " allegedly" - according to Kit and The Widow.

[Nick Armstrong]

I agree - but interesting that the connection has occurred elsewhere, too.

Would be very strange synchronicity if the BB usage in Rejoice was a coincidence...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But the point is that the repeated motif in the Shostakovich (and the Bartok) is widely held to be a reference to Hitler's love of the Lehar. The story of Bartok's use being aimed at Shostakovich is apocryphal. There is no direct record of Bartok having assertaed such. Antal Dorati made a somewhat equivocal assertion that Bartok did not know the Merry Widow, so the tilt must have been at Shostakovish. However, Bartok's son Peter is quoted as stating "one thing is certain, my father was not quoting the symphony- he was quoting from a cabaret song." Again, why would a confirmed anti-Nazi like Bartok have chosen to mock what was clearly seen as an anti-Nazi work by Shostakovich?

Then again, Bartok might be intending to make reference to the Shostakovich, not to parody the work as such, but as a dig in the ribs to Koussevitzky - who commissioned the Bartok, and who'd been promised the US premiere of the Leningrad, only for Toscanini to grab it from him (Koussevitzky had to be content with the Boston premiere a couple of weeks later, with - according to some reports - Bass Drum played by Leonard Bernstein). "There, there, Serge - you wanted to premiere these notes? Fill yer boots!"

Not sure if this entirely fits with Bartok's personality as it is usually portrayed, though.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Andrew Lloyd webber does a lot of it " allegedly" - according to Kit and The Widow.

Massively, but there's another thread about that.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Would be very strange synchronicity if the BB usage in Rejoice was a coincidence...

The best type of synchronicity, imo! It is an instantly recognisable Musical motto, so it's not surprising that it stands out as a quotation/reference (even if it isn't). But ... this just occurring to me ... it's also not that far removed (one note) from Schumann's ASCH motif (as used in Carnaval) - a composer who'd had similar experience as Smart?

Oh - but then there's the resulting problem of the transposition that rauschy mentions ...

Hmm. As you were ...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

This "donkey" - see JLW's comment - is still figuring out why so many people think Brahms 1 has the same tune as Beethoven's 9th. It's similar in some ways - I agree - but not the same.

Not sure why you say "this", Dave - the "donkeys" were what Brahms called those who did think that the two themes were "the same"/"similar". Like you, I find the similarity a bit "stretched". I don't hear how it can be described as a "quotation" - in the way that I understood the Thread title to mean; a deliberate reference within the course of a longer composition to a theme by another which the quoting composer intended the audience to perceive as such.

[ahinton]

http://dschjournal.com/dsch-motif

Fascinating!

By the way, Reger uses a transposition of that motif in the fourth bar of Var. XI of his Variations & Fugue on a theme of Bach for piano and Beethoven used it untransposed at the end of the first line of his piano sonata Les Adieux; each coincidental rather than premonitory, of course...

[Lion-of-Vienna]

Here are a few more quotes:

1. Robert Simpson uses Beethoven's Opus 59 String Quartets as models for his Quartets 4, 5 and 6. There are no direct quotations but the layout of each pair of quartets is similar and it is fascinating to listen to each movement alongside the Beethoven original.

2. Simpson also quotes a fragment of the second group of the first movement of Haydn's Symphony No.76 in the second movement of his Symphony No.4.

3. Tippett used the opening of the finale of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony on three occasions in the final song of his Symphony No.3.

4. Mahler used ideas from the Symphony in E by Hans Rott in his own first symphony. Again, I don't think there are any direct quotes but it is impossible to listen to the Rott symphony without hearing the Mahler.

5. As for Handel and Bach....where do we begin?

[Bryn]

I think there is a possibility that John Adams quotes a snippet or two of Beethoven in his Absolute Jest.