The Envy of the World?

[Cockney Sparrow]

But isn't one reason putting off people clearly the image of opera? Every time the BBC shows a Glyndebourne production and pans across the groups of people in suits and dresses on the lawns, with hampers of food and wine or champagne, isn't that another image which tells people, this isn't really an art-form for everyone but for those of a certain social status, with an income to match?

Oh come on..... Glyndebourne withdrew the facility of landing one's helicopter. Also I have only once seen a servant serving an opulant party on the lawn......

Seriously though - if anyone wants to experience the production in question, then I suggest there is no reason not go (for anyone reading this feeling excluded by the heritage of toffery which is being ascribed to Glyndebourne (rightly or wrongly)). Just dress in a suit (or DJ if one is owned) and merge in. (Edit - On reflection (I was called away before I re-read this post) I would say just smartly, doesn't need to be a suit nor with a tie). I don't detect active snobbery at Glyndebourne - and definitely not at the ROH Covent Garden.

At the ROH only a few people sport the full DJ and opulent evening dress - even then mostly on first nights - in my experience (I circulate in the foyer and the Floral Hall). You can pretty much wear what you like (for example I saw kilt and sleeveless vest top (male) carried off with great confidence). Everyone is too busy arriving in time / trying to get a drink and find a free floor space (not taken over by restaurant/bar meal payer's ever expanding tables) / leaving to get to the station.

The live experience is worth pursuing for all the risks involved - last minute vocal problems, awful production concepts, wayward conducting etc because often its a thrilling experience. Having said that I was so bowled over by the Glyndebourne Tristan and Billy Budd and the ROH Madam Butterfly that I also went for the cinema screenings and I found they are pretty much rewarding as going live so for a shorter journey to the cinema and a cheaper ticket what's not to like ?

I speak as someone raised on a council estate who had no interest in music until a few months after my last music lesson. It took a while to get to opera but I went to many a performance in the ENO Elder / Pountney years and have not been deterred by any such considerations as dress code - I just dress reasonably smartly for the destination in question.

[jean]

As I am sure I’ve said every time it’s been suggested that having to dress up puts people off - have you never seen young working-class (for want of a better term) women at Ladies’ Day at Aintree?

[aeolium]

The live experience is worth pursuing for all the risks involved - last minute vocal problems, awful production concepts, wayward conducting etc because often its a thrilling experience. Having said that I was so bowled over by the Glyndebourne Tristan and Billy Budd and the ROH Madam Butterfly that I also went for the cinema screenings and I found they are pretty much rewarding as going live so for a shorter journey to the cinema and a cheaper ticket what's not to like ?

I agree - that's how I would experience Glyndebourne productions (many of which I admire a lot) or through DVD/Bluray. I merely question whether its environment (I mean the live Festival one) is inviting for people of all backgrounds and classes.

I do get put off by a convention of dressing up, particularly in what seems like absurd attire for hot summer days. And I do question why it is that the ROH, with four times the annual subsidy of WNO - which also has an arduous and expensive touring obligation - has ticket prices that are so much higher than WNO's, nearly two decades after it was publicly criticised for its exclusivity by the then DCMS. But as most here seem to think there is no problem with image, class or access to the opera, I will withdraw from this thread, which I have perhaps derailed from its real subject.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And I do question why it is that the ROH, with four times the annual subsidy of WNO - which also has an arduous and expensive touring obligation - has ticket prices that are so much higher than WNO's, nearly two decades after it was publicly criticised for its exclusivity by the then DCMS.

Well for a start Covent Garden is in London. Looking up how much it would cost you to rent a flat near the ROH, the cheapest I found was £8,017 per month; for an equivalent flat in C10 (near to WNO "headquarters") the most expensive I could find was £3,995 per month. That might have some bearing, before we even go into Artists' fees for the two companies.




(Ticket prices - £12.50 - £49.50 for WNO's Traviata, £9 - £185 for ROHCG's Boheme.)

[LMcD]

'Die Walküre' at our local cinema - ROH/Pappano/Skelton et al. No travel costs, no booking fee. £15. Bit of a no-brainer really.

[jean]

The sound isn't always as good as it should be in those cinema relays, I've found.

But surely the cost of the star singers the ROH must hire is an important factor in their costs? WNO, ON, ETO, the Buxton Opera Festival (on as we speak, not mentioned here yet) give us excellent young singers who haven't made their name yet and can't command the fees the ROH must pay.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But surely the cost of the star singers the ROH must hire is an imoportant factor in their costs? WNO, ON, ETop, the Buxton Opera Festival (on as we speak, not mentioned here yet) give us excellent young singers who haven't made their name yet and can't command the feesthe ROH must pay.

I wondered about this - but as aeolie specified WNO, and knowing that they've had productions with multi-national casts and conductors in the past, I didn't persue it. But you're right - the WNO Traviata cast etc is very much as you describe. (As is, to be fair, the afternoon performance of ROHCG's Boheme that I referred to.)

[Old Grumpy]

Well, I see it's been five years +, but I've finally taken this book off my shelf! It's been a very interesting, if somewhat dense (mainly due to the relatively small print size) read. There are a lot of parallels over the first 50 years of the Third/Radio 3 with some of the discussions on these boards over the period I have been a member...

Plus ça change, eh?

[french frank]

Well, I see it's been five years +, but I've finally taken this book off my shelf! It's been a very interesting, if somewhat dense (mainly due to the relatively small print size) read. There are a lot of parallels over the first 50 years of the Third/Radio 3 with some of the discussions on these boards over the period I have been a member...

Plus ça change, eh?

Yes, I think probably when it was stiff, formal, elitist, focused, uncompromising &c &c it was indeed "the envy of the world". Now, anything R3 is doing is being done or can be done by any number of other stations worldwide and R3 has to <shudder> compete. The forces that bring about change also change with the times. Classical artists die, noted only in the specialist press but - Jeff Beck has just died and it's headline news. And as for (link to BBC arts news)… Do I query the "one of the most influential musicians of all time" tag? No, it's (probably) true. Hélas.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes, I think probably when it was stiff, formal, elitist, focused, uncompromising &c &c it was indeed "the envy of the world". Now, anything R3 is doing is being done or can be done by any number of other stations worldwide and R3 has to <shudder> compete. The forces that bring about change also change with the times. Classical artists die, noted only in the specialist press but - Jeff Beck has just died and it's headline news. And as for (link to BBC arts news)… Do I query the "one of the most influential musicians of all time" tag? No, it's (probably) true. Hélas.

I don’t think it is true . Even though I am a keen fan of rock guitar you can’t seriously compare Beck with Bach or Beethoven.Even he would have thought it ridiculous. He “innovated “ within a very narrowly constrained harmonic and structural palette.

[french frank]

I don’t think it is true . Even though I am a keen fan of rock guitar you can’t seriously compare Beck with Bach or Beethoven.Even he would have thought it ridiculous. He “innovated “ within a very narrowly constrained harmonic and structural palette.

The link was actually to Bowie not Beck. When I added the word "probably" as regarding influence, I was thinking more of the changed world, the fact that Bowie was known to millions more people than Bach or Beethoven were, that his celebrity and appeal were already to a "mass" audience so he must have 'influenced' more musicians. But I don't think that, for that reason, his music is in any way comparable, not even 'in its own way', as the fudge goes. This is why I find it unutterably sad that the 'classical' musicians of the past are sidelined in terms of the attention they get, the number of hours listened to, the amount of ink spilt in the expressing of opinion. And in a world of ephemeral enthusiasm, the baby goes out with the bathwater: I really don't think that Bowie, Beck, Knopfler - Hendrix - will attract much attention in a hundred years or so. But probably neither will Bach. It will be the continuing lure of the new, as now.

But I could be quite wrong!

[JasonPalmer]

One can always retreat to cds and books, my friend a big fan of Spotify...he often travelling so not really practical to carry a large cd collection around. Things change, it all good, radio 3 is for those who like it.

[french frank]

radio 3 is for those who like it.

Every radio station is for "those who like it". As with the distribution of wealth, some people have a great deal, others have little or nothing!

[Serial_Apologist]

Every radio station is for "those who like it". As with the distribution of wealth, some people have a great deal, others have little or nothing!

[JasonPalmer]

From penthouse expensive radio receivers to the homeless man with a wind up radio, BBC radio 3 is available.