Scaled-down transcriptions

[Joseph K]

Your comment about analysis is an interesting one to contemplate. I have the impression, not really having ever had much to do with such things, that music analysis has evolved into a self-sufficient "industry" with its own community, who probably don't feel any sense of necessity about making their work available or accessible to a wider audience. Certainly whenever I encounter any analytical stuff I feel that something essential is being missed (with the exception of a really inspiring lecture by Helmut Lachenmann about Beethoven and Webern that I once witnessed; but then HL is not an analyst of course).

At the risk of derailing this thread, I would be interested to hear your thoughts, if you have any, on how analysis relates to composition. I have only a little experience with composition, and some experience with analysis, but in order to think in abstract musical terms it would appear to me necessary to have some theoretical knowledge and some idea of how it relates to the kind of music one wishes to compose - I suppose in first place, how it relates to one's influences or models. I guess compositional technique and analysis are not the same thing, but it seems to me, they ought to be quite closely related.

Your comment on Lachenmann is interesting, it suggests to me that perhaps it is the particular kind of music analysis that analysts practice which is unsatisfying, compared with the analysis of someone who is foremost a composer.

[BBMmk2]

The thread title, however, is specifically "scaled-down transcriptions', among which a piano trio version of La Mer was being discussed, not at all the same thing as transcribing from one kind of orchestra to another!

Very true! But on another slant brass bands and concert bands could be talked here too, as they are scaled down, as well.

I’ve heard the version of La Mer, doesn’t do it for me, though.

[Richard Barrett]

At the risk of derailing this thread, I would be interested to hear your thoughts, if you have any, on how analysis relates to composition. I have only a little experience with composition, and some experience with analysis, but in order to think in abstract musical terms it would appear to me necessary to have some theoretical knowledge and some idea of how it relates to the kind of music one wishes to compose - I suppose in first place, how it relates to one's influences or models. I guess compositional technique and analysis are not the same thing, but it seems to me, they ought to be quite closely related.

Your comment on Lachenmann is interesting, it suggests to me that perhaps it is the particular kind of music analysis that analysts practice which is unsatisfying, compared with the analysis of someone who is foremost a composer.

If this discussion takes off, maybe it could be moved to a new thread, but for what it's worth I don't think analysis and composition have a lot to do with one another. Analysis attempts to be objective, whereas a composer's view of someone else's composition will be (and should be) deeply conditioned by their own creative personality. This is what was so interesting about Lachenmann's talk. It ended up telling us as much about his music as about anyone else's, without him actually having to mention it explicitly but that was really the intention of course.

[kea]

Of course, many of these reductions date from a time before it was possible to hear orchestral music anywhere in the form of recordings, so to me there doesn't seem to be much point - why listen to the piano version(s) of Le sacre with all that fantastic orchestration taken away, when you don't actually need to? Liszt's Beethoven symphonies are very impressive in many ways of course, but again why would one want to hear them in preference to the original versions? As for making a piano trio out of La Mer that seems to me a pretty ill-conceived idea in this day and age. What's the point?

"This day and age" may not last very much longer, and even before we run out of fossil fuels to keep our computers and CD players and streaming services operating, we're likely to run out of money for orchestras thanks to neoliberal austerity measures. It seems pretty likely that within my lifetime, those reductions will serve a practical purpose once again.

Apart from that, at the moment, they serve the interest of classical music producers and listeners who want to hear only the same old repertoire & are uninterested in anything more recent, but are over-familiar with it and therefore tired of hearing it in the instrumentation it was originally composed for.

[Serial_Apologist]

"This day and age" may not last very much longer, and even before we run out of fossil fuels to keep our computers and CD players and streaming services operating, we're likely to run out of money for orchestras thanks to neoliberal austerity measures. It seems pretty likely that within my lifetime, those reductions will serve a practical purpose once again.

Apart from that, at the moment, they serve the interest of classical music producers and listeners who want to hear only the same old repertoire & are uninterested in anything more recent, but are over-familiar with it and therefore tired of hearing it in the instrumentation it was originally composed for.

[Joseph K]

If this discussion takes off, maybe it could be moved to a new thread, but for what it's worth I don't think analysis and composition have a lot to do with one another. Analysis attempts to be objective, whereas a composer's view of someone else's composition will be (and should be) deeply conditioned by their own creative personality. This is what was so interesting about Lachenmann's talk. It ended up telling us as much about his music as about anyone else's, without him actually having to mention it explicitly but that was really the intention of course.

I suppose the thing is: analysis to what ends? Certain kinds of analysis might seek to be objective... but I wonder how much time composers set aside to look at scores and discover what makes their favourite music tick?

[gradus]

Anyone for Das Lied von der Erde arr Schoenberg? I like it less than the original.
Liszt transcriptions of Schumann and Schubert songs are particular favourites though.

[BBMmk2]

Anyone for Das Lied von der Erde arr Schoenberg? I like it less than the original.
Liszt transcriptions of Schumann and Schubert songs are particular favourites though.

I do rather like Liszt's transcriptions of Beethoven's symphonies.

[Bryn]

I do rather like Liszt's transcriptions of Beethoven's symphonies.

How about Wagner's of the Ninth (replete with vocals)?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Liszt transcriptions of Schumann and Schubert songs are particular favourites though.

The Erlking would be easier if the original were sung and played by the same person (one of my personal ambitions). Liszt's transcription adds to Schubert's difficulties by adding octaves to a part that already challenges the human wrist to its limits.

[LMcD]

I like Beethoven's Variations on 'La Ci Darem La Mano'.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I have some books of duets for flutes and also for clarinets, of arrangements made in the 19th century of famous works. Some of them work extremely well. They're a great way to introduce these works to young players who have reached a certain standard.

[cloughie]

The Erlking would be easier if the original were sung and played by the same person (one of my personal ambitions). Liszt's transcription adds to Schubert's difficulties by adding octaves to a part that already challenges the human wrist to its limits.

Do you say this because the piano part would be much simplified to allow a simpler part to guide the singing role and then let rip a little more when filling! It certainly would also allow a little mor leaway on timing.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Do you say this because the piano part would be much simplified to allow a simpler part to guide the singing role and then let rip a little more when filling! It certainly would also allow a little mor leaway on timing.

I wasn't anticipating cheating.

[cloughie]

Anyone here familiar with this set?


Not as slimmed down as piano trio version of the 2nd Symphony but . . .

Received my set yesterday. At times seem the performances seem rather rushed. So far listened to 3 6 7 8. The Pastoral 2nd movement is really good, timps sound out in the storm.