School Music - Fighting the cuts

[doversoul1]

It seems likely we'd be living in a "different" world (because as far as we know they didn't). But what kind of "different" world?

Sorry ff. I don’t quite get it. Can you rephrase or expand this?

DracoM
You wouldn’t put out all the knives you have in the kitchen on the table where children are sitting?

[Serial_Apologist]

I think you may be treading a dangerous field here. Don’t we all know the fact that, until very recently, ‘classical music’ as we call it now was appreciated almost exclusively by oppressors and exploiters?

For me the point of classical music education is inclusiveness to an enriching musical culture, as ardcarp points out. The oppressors and exploiters kept that culture all to themselves because their position, having servants and so on, conferred the leisure time that enabled them to. Capitalism was supposed to spread the access, but it took centuries of working class struggle for a bigger slice of the cake to achieve that, and once achieved, it was all blown on consumerist ephemerals. Late capitalism's values are dependent on creating perpetual dissatisfaction with what was available yesterday, exercising it through advertising, backed up by peer group pressure and "keeping up with the Joneses", then bringing in guilt feelings when due to internal contradictions peculiar to the system's unsustainability recessions lead to mass unemployment, reduced tax receipts for essential services that are themselves often spent on symptoms of the social and health consequences, and religion on the tail-end of all that. This thread is discussing the consequences of that deliberately inculcated mentality. The effort to oppose them without understanding the basic causes is tantamount to trying to keep the bathwater topped up by running the taps while ignoring the leaky plug.

[MrGongGong]

I think my point is that an appreciation of (and even more so, participation in) classical music is a civilising influence. Would we be living in a different world if Trump and Putin had learned the 48 Preludes and Fugues...or maybe had ballet lessons? Nice image there.

Alex and his droogs sping to mind

We don't need "classical" music education at all
we need MUSIC education that includes ALL musics
genre based approaches to music education are a fundamentally bad idea IMV

[Serial_Apologist]

Alex and his droogs sping to mind

We don't need "classical" music education at all
we need MUSIC education that includes ALL musics
genre based approaches to music education are a fundamentally bad idea IMV

While I in general agree with this, there is however a danger born of post-colonial PC guilt of writing off the post-Renaissance riches of our mainly white, mainly male-dominant Euroclassical heritage in deference to other musical cultures. One can end up being the only ethnic group having no culture to claim ownership on, look up to or contribute to at all, especially given capitalism's inborn tendency to dumb mass culture down!

My own belief is that jazz at its best transcends all this - in practice and in how it takes white European musical culture on board on its own non-commercialised terms.

[MrGongGong]

While I in general agree with this, there is however a danger born of post-colonial PC guilt of writing off the post-Renaissance riches of our mainly white, mainly male-dominant Euroclassical heritage in deference to other musical cultures. One can end up being the only ethnic group having no culture to claim ownership on, look up to or contribute to at all, especially given capitalism's inborn tendency to dumb mass culture down!

My own belief is that jazz at its best transcends all this - in practice and in how it takes white European musical culture on board on its own non-commercialised terms.

I've just come from a meeting with a Pakistiani film maker where we talked about Bach amongst other things. I don't think there really is any "danger" at all and I would include "Western Classical Music" in all of the Musics that one teaches and talks about.

[oddoneout]

:
We don't need "classical" music education at all
we need MUSIC education that includes ALL musics
genre based approaches to music education are a fundamentally bad idea IMV

I agree with your middle comment, but would argue that a decent approach to learning about 'classical' music would go quite some way to introducing the idea that there is a wealth of different types of music out there and no one 'right' kind. It does presuppose however that those doing the educating have sufficient interest and knowledge to look beyond the stereotypes and genres, and the opportunity to convey that interest and knowledge.

[MrGongGong]

I agree with your middle comment, but would argue that a decent approach to learning about 'classical' music would go quite some way to introducing the idea that there is a wealth of different types of music out there and no one 'right' kind. It does presuppose however that those doing the educating have sufficient interest and knowledge to look beyond the stereotypes and genres, and the opportunity to convey that interest and knowledge.

I think the reason we have schools in the first place is to learn about things, or gain insights into things, that we wouldn't otherwise encounter.
You do identify a key point (i'm sure i've gone on about this before ?) in thinking about WHO chooses to become a music teacher in the first place?
It is very unlikely these days that the most inspired and enthusiastic music graduates will even consider teaching in the first place.

[doversoul1]

For me the point of classical music education is inclusiveness to an enriching musical culture, as ardcarp points out. The oppressors and exploiters kept that culture all to themselves because their position, having servants and so on, conferred the leisure time that enabled them to. Capitalism was supposed to spread the access, but it took centuries of working class struggle for a bigger slice of the cake to achieve that, and once achieved, it was all blown on consumerist ephemerals. Late capitalism's values are dependent on creating perpetual dissatisfaction with what was available yesterday, exercising it through advertising, backed up by peer group pressure and "keeping up with the Joneses", then bringing in guilt feelings when due to internal contradictions peculiar to the system's unsustainability recessions lead to mass unemployment, reduced tax receipts for essential services that are themselves often spent on symptoms of the social and health consequences, and religion on the tail-end of all that. This thread is discussing the consequences of that deliberately inculcated mentality. The effort to oppose them without understanding the basic causes is tantamount to trying to keep the bathwater topped up by running the taps while ignoring the leaky plug.

I couldn’t agree with you more, but my point is that we should be aware that a comment like ‘classical music is a civilising influence’ can easily invite counter-argument like Dave 2002’s and my posts.

[DracoM]

Brilliant, S-A. Agree with almost every word.

[Serial_Apologist]

I couldn’t agree with you more, but my point is that we should be aware that a comment like ‘classical music is a civilising influence’ can easily invite counter-argument like Dave 2002’s and my posts. It isn’t, alas, terribly useful in the real world.

Not being at all knowledgeable in the area of colonial enculturation, I would be interested to learn how the Western colonists of the 18th and 19th centuries sought to indoctrinate indigenous peoples with any notion of the superiority of our musical culture over their's. Did this actually happen? - because in all honesty I don't know - or did they just rely on Christianity? As well of course on technological superiority when it came to resorting to force?

[doversoul1]

I've just come from a meeting with a Pakistiani film maker where we talked about Bach amongst other things. I don't think there really is any "danger" at all and I would include "Western Classical Music" in all of the Musics that one teaches and talks about.

Your film maker is probably anti-post colonialist

[oddoneout]

Classical music on the other hand arises from a long art-tradition and requires education and immersion in that tradition to appreciate it. As I type I am being enthralled by a piece of John Sheppard, which as it happens, one of my teenage co-dwellers does appreciate as she has long sung in 'proper' choirs. Many people OTOH would wonder what those strange vocal noises were all about.

If by 'appreciate' you mean understanding the finer points of the composition and performance then yes. However isn't it one of the joys (and important qualities) of music that it can engage a listener, often in quite profound ways, who knows nothing about what it is s/he is listening to? Indeed some people come to 'classical' music by virtue of a random encounter. Is that not a form of appreciation? The implication that only those 'in the know' can appreciate music seems to me to be straying into rather awkward territory. Knowledge may increase enjoyment, but I'm not sure it follows that lack of knowledge precludes enjoyment, and therefore appreciation of the value, of music.
The opportunity to hear many different types of music is surely the important part; from that can develop the wish to learn more about it. You can't explore a world that you are not aware exists.

[oddoneout]

I think the reason we have schools in the first place is to learn about things, or gain insights into things, that we wouldn't otherwise encounter.
You do identify a key point (i'm sure i've gone on about this before ?) in thinking about WHO chooses to become a music teacher in the first place?
It is very unlikely these days that the most inspired and enthusiastic music graduates will even consider teaching in the first place.

I'm not sure to what extent current policy making regards that as part of education.....

[Serial_Apologist]

If by 'appreciate' you mean understanding the finer points of the composition and performance then yes. However isn't it one of the joys (and important qualities) of music that it can engage a listener, often in quite profound ways, who knows nothing about what it is s/he is listening to? Indeed some people come to 'classical' music by virtue of a random encounter. Is that not a form of appreciation? The implication that only those 'in the know' can appreciate music seems to me to be straying into rather awkward territory. Knowledge may increase enjoyment, but I'm not sure it follows that lack of knowledge precludes enjoyment, and therefore appreciation of the value, of music.
The opportunity to hear many different types of music is surely the important part; from that can develop the wish to learn more about it. You can't explore a world that you are not aware exists.

I'm not so sure that any experience of any particular type of music can easily be disengaged from commonly accepted associations that impinge from an early age on ways we learn to receive music.

[MrGongGong]

I'm not sure to what extent current policy making regards that as part of education.....

It doesn't
at all
All the more reason to keep on