School Music - Fighting the cuts

[doversoul1]

It doesn't really matter! I had no awareness at all of "classical" music until I was at least 11 years old. I'm sure that can be said for many other contributors here. Thinking in terms of some kind of artificial balancing between musical genres in education is surely wrong, as MrGG says. Thinking in genres is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Why should "classical" music be given undue attention? If it is, does that guarantee in any way that children will give it a continuing place in their lives as they grow up?

What I find it puzzling is; why is classical music, and only classical music, is always linked with ‘thinking in genres’, which, to me, seems to be almost synonymous to ‘exclusion’. If we shouldn’t be thinking in genres, why should not classical music be treated equally important/useful as all the rest of genres? Or is it so wrong to tell children that there is a type/group of music that is know as classical music? Or is classical music being given to children in bleeding chunks without telling them what it is?

[Richard Barrett]

What I find it puzzling is; why is classical music, and only classical music, is always linked with ‘thinking in genres’

It isn't.

[doversoul1]

It isn't.

It certainly sounds that way to me by reading Mr GG’s posts. And if not, why have there been quite a few posts on other similar threads questioning about lack of classical music in children’s education now? MrGG’s answer usually if not always includes the word ‘genres’.

[Richard Barrett]

It certainly sounds that way to me by reading Mr GG’s posts.

I don't speak for him of course. My view is that "musical genres" are a marketing strategy rather than reflecting the infinite possibilities that exist for encountering, appreciating, listening to and making music.

[doversoul1]

I don't speak for him of course. My view is that "musical genres" are a marketing strategy rather than reflecting the infinite possibilities that exist for encountering, appreciating, listening to and making music.

Marketing strategy came about much later than the concept of genres was ever proposed or established (things were always put in groups to be sold). It is one of the basic human natures to think things in groups (when was the first ‘name’ given to a group/style of music?). And the infinite possibilities are, by definition, the concept appreciated by those who have arrived at the point where s/he can see the whole scene. And I can’t say I am terribly keen on the idea of treating music, especially classical or art music, as a phenomenon, if that’s what it means (Mr GG #111). Sounds like an excuse for not teaching children classical music, however that may work.

[Richard Barrett]

(things were always put in groups to be sold)

- As I say, a marketing strategy.

It is one of the basic human natures to think things in groups

- and groups can be and are constructed in many different ways using the same starting materials. Besides which I always get a bit suspicious of appeals to "basic human nature". They're generally not supported by anything but hunches and assumptions. I'm not in any way making an excuse for "not teaching children classical music". I'm suggesting that there may be more imaginative ways to do it which don't depend on "genre" divisions.

[Dave2002]

It's difficult trying to teach children music, or classical music. There's so much baggage associated with it. If parents like classical music, the children may hate it, or rebel against it - perhaps not because they really do, but because "it's what the parents do". Also peer pressure from other children may tend to have an adverse effect. "You don't actually like classical music do you?" "No - of course not." There is a time in a child's life when rebelling is something most of them have to do. I think this is to assert their independence. Music is as good a thing to rebel against as anything else, and it's probably a lot better to rebel against that than have some other behaviour!

Some children can resist all the other pressures, and actually like music - whatever other people think, while others really can't.
Some people appear, from their actions, to like music (e.g film music, musicals, some pop, some classical, pop music from other countries, christmas carols) yet will deny any interest in classical music completly. Odd how some of these are able to pick out tunes on a piano, play music on wind instruments, read music, and identify pieces or composers on University Challenge. All while insisting that they don't like it, or listen to it.

[doversoul1]

- As I say, a marketing strategy.
- and groups can be and are constructed in many different ways using the same starting materials. Besides which I always get a bit suspicious of appeals to "basic human nature". They're generally not supported by anything but hunches and assumptions. I'm not in any way making an excuse for "not teaching children classical music".

I’m sure there are plenty of psychological and biological or even sociological evidence that this (grouping things) is part of human nature. That is why the concept of genres is an old, established concept.

that there may be more imaginative ways to do it which don't depend on "genre" divisions.

Is this not the question of methods and not about the content.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

At the moment, Music Education in a great many schools is dying of thirst: debating whether water (still or sparkling?), tea, coffee, cola or single malt whisky is the best way of saving the situation is a time-wasting luxury.

Get money for resources into schools - pay for staff with a variety of skills and interests (if there's only one member of staff responsible for delivering the whole Music course in a school, then the emphasis cannot be other than on what that sole teacher's interests are - and if that "one member of staff" is a qualified PE teacher, who plays keyboard in a band at weekends, whose talents are being used to fill up his/her timetable, the depth of education on offer may probably not be as secure as it should be).

At the root of the problem, I feel, is that a majority of people don't think that the Arts are important; for them, it doesn't matter that money isn't being spent on "hobby" subjects. Without a change in this attitude, nothing will (nothing can) improve.

[doversoul1]

Lucky children.

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2019/mar/12/roger-ascham-pimary-school-dancing-matthew-bourne-nutcracker

[Serial_Apologist]

It is one of the basic human natures to think things in groups

It's probably best to speak of areas of music and musical activity in cultural-historical rather than absolute categorical terms. Once one goes beyond simplified primary categories, such as black, white, blue and red, the human capacity for categorisation has its limits, being unable to recognise or acknowledge shades or degrees of difference. When I confess to being a fan of jazz music, I have to simplify what I mean by the term or category, and anyone on here who has observed my disagreements with Ian Thumwood on this supposedly basic question will see how hard this can be, even between afficionados. Berthold Brecht put this rather well when he asked his stereotyped businessman what a man was, to which the other answered, "I've no idea what a man is [any more than I can define any other commodity, such as rice]: I only know his price". So categories are labels of convenience, dependent on use, and usefulness, and as such are no more "natural", ie identifiable in nature(apart from DNA), than are human beings, good and bad, etc etc.

[doversoul1]

It's probably best to speak of areas of music and musical activity in cultural-historical rather than absolute categorical terms. Once one goes beyond simplified primary categories, such as black, white, blue and red, the human capacity for categorisation has its limits, being unable to recognise or acknowledge shades or degrees of difference. When I confess to being a fan of jazz music, I have to simplify what I mean by the term or category, and anyone on here who has observed my disagreements with Ian Thumwood on this supposedly basic question will see how hard this can be, even between afficionados. Berthold Brecht put this rather well when he asked his stereotyped businessman what a man was, to which the other answered, "I've no idea what a man is [any more than I can define any other commodity, such as rice]: I only know his price". So categories are labels of convenience, dependent on use, and usefulness, and as such are no more "natural", ie identifiable in nature(apart from DNA), than are human beings, good and bad, etc etc.

Since the Host wisely intervened in order to keep the thread on the subject, I’ll be very quick:

One of the first games children learn is Odd one Out (group the same together), and one of the first things trainee teachers in PCET (post compulsory education and training) learn is to (or used to be) group the subjects/ideas together so that the learners can see the sense in what they are to learn. These ideas are usually based on fairly thorough research and practical experiences. This is not about boundaries.

[Dave2002]

Lucky children.

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/20...rne-nutcracker

That looks brilliant!

[MrGongGong]

It's difficult trying to teach children music, or classical music. There's so much baggage associated with it. .

It's not difficult at all if you ignore the adult "baggage"
Last week I went to 6 schools, some of the music we made involved dropping shells into a tank of water with a home-made hydrophone in it, some involved musicians from a well-known orchestra playing Handel, ALL of this is part of musicking. If we think that one of these activities is somehow "difficult" then we will communicate that perception.
I've told stories before of working with children who reject "Classical" music as a label because it's synonymous with the word "Boring" but are excited by listening to Mahler, getting rid of the C word is a good plan IMV


I like "Classical" music very much indeed and often play, refer, talk about it when working with young people (which, of course, includes Classical musics such as Carnatic music, Gamelan etc )
BUT I don't think that teaching music based on Songwriting (like "Musical Futures") or other genre-based approaches is a good idea.
This is NOT to say that grouping music in different ways is "bad" just that (as RB says) the whole dividing music up into marketing chunks ignores many of the more interesting things about the phenomena of music.

[MrGongGong]

At the moment, Music Education in a great many schools is dying of thirst: debating whether water (still or sparkling?), tea, coffee, cola or single malt whisky is the best way of saving the situation is a time-wasting luxury.

Get money for resources into schools - pay for staff with a variety of skills and interests (if there's only one member of staff responsible for delivering the whole Music course in a school, then the emphasis cannot be other than on what that sole teacher's interests are - and if that "one member of staff" is a qualified PE teacher, who plays keyboard in a band at weekends, whose talents are being used to fill up his/her timetable, the depth of education on offer may probably not be as secure as it should be).

At the root of the problem, I feel, is that a majority of people don't think that the Arts are important; for them, it doesn't matter that money isn't being spent on "hobby" subjects. Without a change in this attitude, nothing will (nothing can) improve.

Spot on