School Music - Fighting the cuts

[DracoM]

So, from your experience, what's the best way to encourage children from non-musical households to 'fall in love with music'?

[teamsaint]

A young person does not in fact need a pushy or even an encouraging parent. If the child is determined enough and has fallen in love with music and a particular instrument then they will strive for success. I have friends who came from non musical backgrounds as I myself have (and including my wife), and we have all made a living as professional musicians.

Others I know came from musical parents and never wanted to be musicians.

A private school background helps though, if you want to attend, say, RAM.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/feb/01/attempts-to-widen-uk-university-student-participation-have-stalled

[doversoul1]

I don’t think we should bring in the result than can be demonstrated or displayed when we think about music education at school. It should be part of children’s experience. If it leads to some children becoming professional musicians, that’s fine but that’s almost irrelevant in the discussion. As Mr GG said somewhere (or always saying) education is not training. It should not be ‘outcome lead’.

I almost think that it doesn’t really matter if children don’t ‘fall in love’ with music. The experience of having music in some form in their lives is what counts.

[Dave2002]

I don’t think we should bring in the result than can be demonstrated or displayed when we think about music education at school. It should be part of children’s experience. If it leads to some children becoming professional musicians, that’s fine but that’s almost irrelevant in the discussion. As Mr GG said somewhere (or always saying) education is not training. It should not be ‘outcome lead’.

I almost think that it doesn’t really matter if children don’t ‘fall in love’ with music. The experience of having music in some form in their lives is what counts.

A lot of what gets written about education is ideological, and that applies even to some of us here, though hopefully in a fairly benign way. I think that opportunity to experience music (or indeed any other interest) is important, but how far should this be pushed? There are seemingly fallacies in the assumptions that if people are good at something, then they must like it - or perhaps conversely that people can't enjoy things they're not really very good at.
Exposure is a start, and that seems to be a starting point for the school with the brass band. Social pressures and acceptance may also be important. It sounds as though the school has received support and is valued enough within the community to survive in this endeavour, though lack of funding is sadly threatening to make this less certain. Perhaps it is important that young people (and older ones too) have some interests, and hopefully these shouldn't create too much competition which might itself cause problems. Some people might like sports, others reading, or playing chess, while some might like and want to participate in drama, or musical activities. Motivating people is part of the teaching proces, but feedback is also important. Feedback may be positive, or negative - or perhaps just barely neutral - and can come from external sources. External social values can have an impact - think Billy Elliot.

Value judgements are at play. Just because I happen to like music doesn't mean that I should force others to listen to it, or play it. I can suggest that it might help them to enjoy some aspects of life more, but that's perhaps as far as it should go. Different people may like different things. Liberal minded people might encourage a variety of activities for others, but if I even state that I think that would be a good thing I am also making at least a moderately strong statement which is yet another value judgement.

An issue is whether one person or group of persons' beliefs and interests should be transferred to others or imposed upon them.

[oddoneout]

A lot of what gets written about education is ideological, and that applies even to some of us here, though hopefully in a fairly benign way. I think that opportunity to experience music (or indeed any other interest) is important, but how far should this be pushed? There are seemingly fallacies in the assumptions that if people are good at something, then they must like it - or perhaps conversely that people can't enjoy things they're not really very good at.
Exposure is a start, and that seems to be a starting point for the school with the brass band. Social pressures and acceptance may also be important. It sounds as though the school has received support and is valued enough within the community to survive in this endeavour, though lack of funding is sadly threatening to make this less certain. Perhaps it is important that young people (and older ones too) have some interests, and hopefully these shouldn't create too much competition which might itself cause problems. Some people might like sports, others reading, or playing chess, while some might like and want to participate in drama, or musical activities. Motivating people is part of the teaching proces, but feedback is also important. Feedback may be positive, or negative - or perhaps just barely neutral - and can come from external sources. External social values can have an impact - think Billy Elliot.

Value judgements are at play. Just because I happen to like music doesn't mean that I should force others to listen to it, or play it. I can suggest that it might help them to enjoy some aspects of life more, but that's perhaps as far as it should go. Different people may like different things. Liberal minded people might encourage a variety of activities for others, but if I even state that I think that would be a good thing I am also making at least a moderately strong statement which is yet another value judgement.

An issue is whether one person or group of persons' beliefs and interests should be transferred to others or imposed upon them.

I would agree that that is not a desirable situation but isn't it what is happening in education with regard to the arts? Those in control of education policy do not appear to have any interest in ensuring that such subjects have a place in the school curriculum(perhaps because they themselves have no interest in the arts) and also it would seem no belief in the benefits of such subjects, and are able to impose their removal from the curriculum. The official line of course is that it is the school's decision, which in an absolute sense it is, but a decision reached through lack of any alternative choice becomes something rather questionable in my view.

[Once Was 4]

I would agree that that is not a desirable situation but isn't it what is happening in education with regard to the arts? Those in control of education policy do not appear to have any interest in ensuring that such subjects have a place in the school curriculum(perhaps because they themselves have no interest in the arts) and also it would seem no belief in the benefits of such subjects, and are able to impose their removal from the curriculum. The official line of course is that it is the school's decision, which in an absolute sense it is, but a decision reached through lack of any alternative choice becomes something rather questionable in my view.

If it has been mentioned in any of the links then please forgive me for bringing this up but, I am afraid political correctness comes into it as well. I am talking about 'Wider Ops'. This is wrecking instrumental musical education up and down the country but a lot of senior figures in the musical education world are being forced to push it - often against their own better judgement and experience. I know at least one very enthusiastic and experienced 'peri' who took early retirement having been threatened with dismissal for speaking out and in public. He now has a very thriving private teaching practice.

Peer pressure is also a problem: for three years in my semi-retirement I travelled to another part of the country each Wednesday to do a day's brass teaching (left home at 5.45am to start at 8.30!) I was teaching two sisters - very keen and talented players - but they started missing lessons and would sometimes turn up without instruments. Investigations by the school Head of Music established that other children were bullying them for 'doing music'. In the end I was withdrawn from that school (a senior school) and the girls were sent to the primary school where we ran a brass ensemble, to have their lessons after the school day. It is some years now since this work ended but I gather than both, now young adults, are still playing in various groups as is a boy there whom I taught and who was on the verge of being a delinquent but is now a refomed character. Music hath charms etc., etc., etc.

[Once Was 4]

And following on from my previous post: not all 'music' teachers are sympathetic to 'classical' music. In the same town I went to one senior school to teach one boy because his Mum had kicked up a serious fuss. They had a fully qualified Head of Music who thought that classical instruments were eletist. Electric guitars, drum kits and, above all, computer music were his thing. My own boss told me that the parents of another child had asked for 'cello lessons. A teacher was available but said Head of Music refused and was supported by the Headteacher.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Don't get me started on Wider Opps:

1. Waste of money
2. Waste of teachers' skills
3. Deskilled classroom teachers
4. Diverted funds from small group teaching, resulting in parents having to pay more
5. Had the opposite of the desired effect.

[MrGongGong]

Don't get me started on Wider Opps:

1. Waste of money
2. Waste of teachers' skills
3. Deskilled classroom teachers
4. Diverted funds from small group teaching, resulting in parents having to pay more
5. Had the opposite of the desired effect.

I have worked with classes who are doing this
and when it's done well it can be a great creative experience
BUT BUT BUT the places where this happens are so rare
it's a shame really because there is a real place for giving large numbers of children the physical experience of playing music together
but all so often those in charge aren't able to do the necessary work

A few years ago I worked at primary school where a whole class put their hands up when asked if they played an instrument.
They ALL were learning the cello, they all had cellos and we composed a fantastic piece for 30 cellos focussing on all sorts of techniques
THIS isn't "instrumental teaching" by any means BUT IF (and it's a big IF) the enthusiasm and energy was followed up then it would be a perfect way to start to play music.

Sadly, not enough people involved in deciding how to go about these things have read Sloboda or Chris Small

I taught "wider ops balloons" last year and very successful it was too , it even ended up on Radio 3

[Dave2002]

I had to look up Wider Opps - as I'm not in the music teaching profession. The tale of the music teacher who thought classical instruments are elitist is sad, though it would perhaps also be sad if a music teacher did not help students who wanted to do rap, or play electric guitars or drum kits. One problem though could be that too many teachers would need to be capable of teaching some aspects of music to be able to cover all possible genres. At the school I went to the music teacher played organ and piano, and was pretty much into classical music - though I don't know what he really liked. I think he also trained the choir, and he may also have worked with a church choir. In those times - which was slightly before the Beatles - I don't suppose anyone would seriously have thought that music teachers should have been familiar with rock music, or even jazz or dance band music. We did learn a bit about history, and musical notation and harmony though. What the requirements are to become a music teacher nowadays I really couldn't say. Teaching just one aspect of music, such as playing one instrument, should be relatively easy compared with being a generalist - but then there has to be a match between the teacher and the students. I couldn't teach any string player, but I might stand a chance with a few wind instruments. Outside of specialist music schools finding teachers to cover a range of instruments must surely be very hard.

Peer pressure and related bullying are very probably major factors for many young students. Some students - perhaps many - do not want to stand out, so are happy to lead a middle of the road existence - while others may really want to shine, and to be known as "individuals". It may not be hip or cool, or whatever the current words for the concept are, to be known to like classical music or even to play it, which will influence students in what they do. Some will ignore that and do it anyway, others will compensate by widening their range, and others will avoid altogether. This is perhaps more related to what students feel about their relationship with other students or the teachers or society, than any intrinsic preference for musical genres. It also depends on whether students want to rebel or fit in with social groups, or become isolated individuals.

[ardcarp]

I am not a teacher. Neither am I an intellectual. (Mrs A is sniggering in the background.) However I think it is very important to distinguish between 'pop' music and 'classical' music. Both words are inadequate descriptions of their genres. But I'm using them anyway.

Pop music is easily latched onto by its adherents and has a huge amount to do with ephemeral fashions. It often also needs a primeval rhyhmic urge. I am in no way dissing it, and indeed I live in a house with teenagers..and even have to accompany them occasionally, eg in an Ed Sheeran song. My point is that pop music will be there whether or not schoolteachers try to use it in the classroom as a way of 'engaging' kids. In fact most teenagers will covertly or otherwise ridicule such efforts.

Classical music on the other hand arises from a long art-tradition and requires education and immersion in that tradition to appreciate it. As I type I am being enthralled by a piece of John Sheppard, which as it happens, one of my teenage co-dwellers does appreciate as she has long sung in 'proper' choirs. Many people OTOH would wonder what those strange vocal noises were all about. The word 'classical' is perhaps not so inappropriate here. In the West, we look to Ancient Greece as the root of our civilisation and democracy. It is no coincidence that song, dance and drama were a staple of Greek society.

I think my point is that an appreciation of (and even more so, participation in) classical music is a civilising influence. Would we be living in a different world if Trump and Putin had learned the 48 Preludes and Fugues...or maybe had ballet lessons? Nice image there.

[Dave2002]

I think my point is that an appreciation of (and even more so, participation in) classical music is a civilising influence. Would we be living in a different world if Trump and Putin had learned the 48 Preludes and Fugues...or maybe had ballet lessons? Nice image there.

Probably not. Remember that Hitler seemed to like some art music, and appreciated good/great performers. He even liked Jewish musicians when it suited him.

[doversoul1]

I think my point is that an appreciation of (and even more so, participation in) classical music is a civilising influence. Would we be living in a different world if Trump and Putin had learned the 48 Preludes and Fugues...or maybe had ballet lessons? Nice image there.

I think you may be treading a dangerous field here. Don’t we all know the fact that, until very recently, ‘classical music’ as we call it now was appreciated almost exclusively by oppressors and exploiters?

[french frank]

I think you may be treading a dangerous field here. Don’t we all know the fact that, until very recently, ‘classical music’ as we call it now was appreciated almost exclusively by oppressors and exploiters?

It seems likely we'd be living in a "different" world (because as far as we know they didn't). But what kind of "different" world?

[DracoM]

I use a knife for meals, Knives kill. So should I dismiss all knives from my kitchen?