Low Pay

[Once Was 4]

I often attend concerts at RNCM and prior to the evening concert I sit in the refectory around tea-time at which time is packed with students. With this continuous flow each year of music students I often wonder where they will end-up working. Surely there can only be enough jobs in the music industry for a small number of them.

Unfortunately a lot of them drop out and do other things. And it is not just a matter of pay: it is a matter of how the orchestral profession is organised which drives even successful players to despair some times.

But also, being realistic, expectations of what the orchestral profession demands are not taught to students. I was lucky, my teachers drummed into me that it was first and formost a job and a way of earning a living; and it would not be a lucrative one.

About a year ago I went in to fill a gap with an amateur orchestra who had booked several string players from a certain music college to stiffen the ranks. They spent about an hour in the band room between the rehearsal and the show amusing themselves by running through (not very well) their favourite bits of their favourite concertos.

I told the Chairman of the orchestra that he should speak to them and give them a bit of sage advice as they would not take it from an old git like me. He refused - describing them as 'brilliant'.

I am sad that somebody has taken a pop at orchestral funding: it should be increased as should funding for chamber music, choral music and a host of other life-enhancing things (and other arts).

But we need to be well looked after by the NHS, police, education and, yes, defence services first. Let's get real. And let's not kid ourselves by thinking that any one politician will, or can even if he genuinly thinks that he can which I doubt, sort this out overnight.

[MrGongGong]

I am sad that somebody has taken a pop at orchestral funding: it should be increased as should funding for chamber music, choral music and a host of other life-enhancing things (and other arts).
.

Indeed it should
But, given that we are unlikely to have significant increases in arts funding it doesn't make sense for so much of the funding allocated to music to be spent in one part of the country (yes, I know there are orchestras in other places, i'm writing a piece for one at the moment !) and on such a small area of music.

[Once Was 4]

https://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/Fi...Agreement-2017


CBSO terms and conditions.
Appendix A ,2 suggests that the work commitment is broadly 200 days a year, roughly the same as the hours that school teachers spend in the classroom, and pay from £30 to £40 k.
Have I read that right ?
Elsewhere I think it says that the working week is 40hours, although it also suggests that days over 5or 6 hours attract overtime payments, in clause 6.

Can anybody clarify ?

Of course the working week for an orchestral player (excluding work outside the job - teaching, gigs with other orchestras etc) is skewed by the need for practice (which is bloody hard work sometimes!). This can vary greatly from player-to-player according to the position that they hold in their section and also their particular skill-set. I worked with one horn player who could come in after a day off spent purely on recreational activities and play to the usual very high standard. Me, if I did that, no-way! I would be in trouble. And I know of one top American horn player who would perform in a demanding concert, go home, and practice for whatever was on the next day. Certainly, on a day that only involved an opera performance, I would have wanted to put some time in earlier which affected what else I did that day (notoriously, I once parked up in a layby on the road to Norwich, sat on the tailgate of my car and did a 20 minute warm up as I did not want to go into The Marriage of Figaro cold. Unfortunately this was witnessed by the orchestral manager who hauled me in to see if I was still sane.
Which reminds one of a violinist in one of the great American orchestras who was known to have a large family and he augmented his income by doing a lot of teaching. One night his Chief Conductor went out to dinner after a concert and saw said violinist playing in the cafe band. He asked him if he often moonlighted there and received the answer "every evening". The conductor exclaimed "my God man, when do you sleep!" Came the answer "in your rehearsals!" Boom Boom!

[MrGongGong]

I worked with one horn player who could come in after a day off spent purely on recreational activities and play to the usual very high standard.

Aaha
Is that the same one that I used to play in the youth orchestra with, who can run the London Marathon in the morning (in under 3 hours), go for a couple of pints at lunchtime then play 1st horn in a Wagner Opera in the evening without making any mistakes?

Grrrrrrrrr

[Bergonzi]

Yes, if string players could accept that a strad isn't necessary then £30 000 should be enough, at rank and file level in a provincial orchestra.

More than enough. I would think most players outside of London would be on instruments in the £5K to £15K bracket. Maybe in, for example, the LSO -there may be some players using £30K + instruments.

[MrGongGong]

More than enough. I would think most players outside of London would be on instruments in the £5K to £15K bracket. Maybe in, for example, the LSO -there may be some players using £30K + instruments.

Obviously those folk "outside London" don't really need such good instruments as they aren't playing in such high quality ensembles

People often go on about the high cost of instruments
BUT next time you are at a builders merchant ask a plumber how much their van and tools cost

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Obviously those folk "outside London" don't really need such good instruments as they aren't playing in such high quality ensembles

People often go on about the high cost of instruments
BUT next time you are at a builders merchant ask a plumber how much their van and tools cost

Not as much as a decent bassoon and let's not get started on a contrabassoon.

An oboist might require an oboe, a cor anglais, an oboe d'amore, and then there might be lower pitched HIPP instruments to consider.

[MrGongGong]

Not as much as a decent bassoon and let's not get started on a contrabassoon.

An oboist might require an oboe, a cor anglais, an oboe d'amore, and then there might be lower pitched HIPP instruments to consider.

Still cheaper than one of these and the tools to go in it

http://tools.mercedes-benz.co.uk/current/vans/pricelists/Q1_2017_Sprinter_C.pdf

I'm not suggesting instruments are "cheap" but it all depends on what one compares them to.

[Once Was 4]

More than enough. I would think most players outside of London would be on instruments in the £5K to £15K bracket. Maybe in, for example, the LSO -there may be some players using £30K + instruments.

Which of course reminds me of the time when the Orchestral Manager left his viola in the Leader's Room. He went back to find that it had been stolen and asked the orchestra, nearly in tears, whether somebody had taken it as a joke. No - it had been stolen and it was never recovered. In fact the leader that day was using a violin which he loved but which had a comparative low value.

And I can name an amateur horn player whom I once knew and who had a pair of just about the most expensive horns that money can buy. Still sounded duff on them!

[MrGongGong]

Any rich fool can buy a Steinway

[Bergonzi]

Obviously those folk "outside London" don't really need such good instruments as they aren't playing in such high quality ensembles

That's total rubbish. The only reason why in London they "may' have more expensive instruments (NOT better instruments) is that they get a bit more money and can get them, or have them "loaned".

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

That's total rubbish. The only reason why in London they "may' have more expensive instruments (NOT better instruments) is that they get a bit more money and can get them, or have them "loaned".

I think MrGG was being a little ironic.

[Bergonzi]

Well, that's his problem!

[MrGongGong]

Well, that's his problem!

[Conchis]

An Objectivist idealogue like Saed Javid would probably say these people ought to consider themselves fortunate they are being paid at all and that what they are getting is 'the highest market rate'.

That belief goes hand in hand with the belief that the only reason people engage in 'employment activity' is to make money.

Most orchestral musicians, I would hazard a guess, are not primarily motivated by money. If they were, they wouldn't be orchestral musicians. But everybody's got to live?

What's the answer? More horrible .....Philharmonic plays the Music of AL-W? James Bond Spectaculars? Star Wars?

Actually, I think I'd rather do telesales than endure all that....