Low Pay

[subcontrabass]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-43976334

[rauschwerk]

Doesn't surprise me in the least, I'm afraid.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Musicians often have to fork out a huge amount to buy decent instruments, spend years studying at considerable cost, and then they are asked to play for a pittance (or nothing).

[MrGongGong]

It's a bit "NSS"

But (even though I frequently work with many of these folk) that this is the answer

"

The Musicians' Union surveyed 285 musicians in seven orchestras across the UK to reach its findings.
To highlight their predicament, the organisation is launching a campaign, Musician Behind the Moment, to remind people of how valuable orchestras can be - in the hope fans will put pressure on the Arts Council and local councils to increase funding.

"Special pleading" for orchestral music again?

"The worst case scenario is we'll see a lot of orchestras closing," she added. "It would be disastrous."

It could be argued that there are already too many of them and not enough £ goes to other types of ensembles
but the last time that was suggested it caused all sorts of shenanigans (Wilding Report ?)

[Richard Barrett]

It could be argued that there are already too many of them and not enough £ goes to other types of ensembles

It could be, but that presupposes that there's a fixed and insufficient amount of £ to go around, which in reality there isn't. The UK government blew up 6 million quid's worth of missiles in Syria the other day (not to mention the cost of flying the planes that launched them) which achieved - what exactly? more than would have been achieved by distributing this amount to musicians whose work actually improves other people's lives (as well as their own)? Don't get me started.

[MrGongGong]

It could be, but that presupposes that there's a fixed and insufficient amount of £ to go around, which in reality there isn't. The UK government blew up 6 million quid's worth of missiles in Syria the other day (not to mention the cost of flying the planes that launched them) which achieved - what exactly? more than would have been achieved by distributing this amount to musicians whose work actually improves other people's lives (as well as their own)? Don't get me started.

True
But I do worry that those capable of having the ear of the powerful will advance their own interests over others
Which is why, in music education, there is considerable trumpeting of some "In Harmony" type projects (which DO some great work but have somewhat dubious methodologies at times) at a time when music is being systematically removed from many schools...... Don't get me started

[Stanfordian]

It's a bit "NSS"

But (even though I frequently work with many of these folk) that this is the answer

"



"Special pleading" for orchestral music again?




It could be argued that there are already too many of them and not enough £ goes to other types of ensembles
but the last time that was suggested it caused all sorts of shenanigans (Wilding Report ?)

I often attend concerts at RNCM and prior to the evening concert I sit in the refectory around tea-time at which time is packed with students. With this continuous flow each year of music students I often wonder where they will end-up working. Surely there can only be enough jobs in the music industry for a small number of them.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There is indeed a huge surplus of excellent players, but that does not justify poor pay (or volunteering).

[MrGongGong]

I often attend concerts at RNCM and prior to the evening concert I sit in the refectory around tea-time at which time is packed with students. With this continuous flow each year of music students I often wonder where they will end-up working. Surely there can only be enough jobs in the music industry for a small number of them.

Education isn't training
and
there are many ways of working in music without opting for the obvious ones

[ahinton]

It could be, but that presupposes that there's a fixed and insufficient amount of £ to go around, which in reality there isn't. The UK government blew up 6 million quid's worth of missiles in Syria the other day (not to mention the cost of flying the planes that launched them) which achieved - what exactly? more than would have been achieved by distributing this amount to musicians whose work actually improves other people's lives (as well as their own)? Don't get me started.

You have started - and you're 100% right. This kind of thing needs to be as widely and noisily trumpeted as possible (and the trumpet players who do so should be paid more than they are).

[Stanfordian]

Education isn't training
and
there are many ways of working in music without opting for the obvious ones

No need to get fractious. I didn't say education was training! I was wondering where all these music students from the colleges end up working as I really have no idea.

[MrGongGong]

No need to get fractious. I didn't say education was training! I was wondering where all these music students from the colleges end up working as I really have no idea.

I wasn't being "fractious"
They end up doing all sorts of things including working in music
But there is a tendency (not YOU) for some folks to think that it's somehow a "waste" for someone to study music to a high level and not become a player.

[Bergonzi]

I agree about the pay and living in London (as is the case in many other professions and jobs) which does not give enough for the huge cost of living. I always felt well off outside of London, but that was a while ago. In London it was OK as I had already got a house and instrument.

Just to clarify, modern string instruments can be bought for under £10,000 and these can be as good as the "old masters" i.e Strad and that gang. Even turn of the 20C French instruments can be had for around £7,000+ and these can be pretty good, or at least some of them. OK you have to shop around a lot, but that's normal. In fact you can be OK in an orchestra with luck and and have an instrument costing as little as £5,000. (OK - cellos are going to be about double those prices, but I'm speaking of violins and violas. Basses I have no idea!)

[Mal]

Yes, if string players could accept that a strad isn't necessary then £30 000 should be enough, at rank and file level in a provincial orchestra.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/08/science/a-strad-violinists-cant-tell.html

But we need to support provincial orchestras better, and get them more involved in the community, and the community should get more involved with them. My local (professional) orchestra has to play, mostly, at a second rate theatre out in the sticks when there is a good theatre bang in the centre of town that shows rubbish musicals and bad plays (mostly). They had a ballet with a soundtrack backing recently! This is just wrong; time for some subsidies from council tax, and cheap tickets

[teamsaint]

https://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/Files/Rates/Employment/CBSO-Agreement-2017

CBSO terms and conditions.
Appendix A ,2 suggests that the work commitment is broadly 200 days a year, roughly the same as the hours that school teachers spend in the classroom, and pay from £30 to £40 k.
Have I read that right ?
Elsewhere I think it says that the working week is 40hours, although it also suggests that days over 5or 6 hours attract overtime payments, in clause 6.

Can anybody clarify ?