Last chance for a while ....

[Dave2002]

.... to see this programme about drones and minimalism - https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...-1-california# Part 1

Not sure - does it expire at 5am overnight? Give it a shot.

There is still a week to see the second part.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks dave - at last a chance to give this my maximal attention!

[Dave2002]

Perhaps I'll drone on about this for a few more days while Part 2 is still available!

I actually thought that Part 1 wasn't too bad - though could have covered some of the ground in half the time or less, but I suppose there was a point to be made. It might have been helpful to have seen the score of In C - though I'm not sure if it's possible to follow such a score while the musicians are playiing. If they are all playing at the same time, but possibly with a slippage of 2-3 sections, plus trying to hear "through" the combination effects, then following the music could be really hard.

Has anyone here tried it?

I was once on a train returning home, and two women opposite started talking about what they'd been doing. One had it seems been taking part in a performance of In C - and sounded as though she had done that a few times - but there might have been problems with the conductor.

Is the score widely available?

[MrGongGong]

Perhaps I'll drone on about this for a few more days while Part 2 is still available!

I actually thought that Part 1 wasn't too bad - though could have covered some of the ground in half the time or less, but I suppose there was a point to be made. It might have been helpful to have seen the score of In C - though I'm not sure if it's possible to follow such a score while the musicians are playiing. If they are all playing at the same time, but possibly with a slippage of 2-3 sections, plus trying to hear "through" the combination effects, then following the music could be really hard.

Has anyone here tried it?

I was once on a train returning home, and two women opposite started talking about what they'd been doing. One had it seems been taking part in a performance of In C - and sounded as though she had done that a few times - but there might have been problems with the conductor.

Is the score widely available?

Conductor ?
Not needed

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It might have been helpful to have seen the score of In C - though I'm not sure if it's possible to follow such a score while the musicians are playiing. If they are all playing at the same time, but possibly with a slippage of 2-3 sections, plus trying to hear "through" the combination effects, then following the music could be really hard.

You're right: the score is more a "Partitur" - an assemblage of parts - rather than something that a reader can use to "follow" an individual performance.

Is the score widely available?

The score of the entire piece is given in MrGG's #4.

[MrGongGong]

You're right: the score is more a "Partitur" - an assemblage of parts - rather than something that a reader can use to "follow" an individual performance.

The idea that a "score" is something one can follow is (of course) not always a useful or appropriate way of thinking about notation.

[Serial_Apologist]

Has anyone here tried it?

I was once on a train returning home, and two women opposite started talking about what they'd been doing. One had it seems been taking part in a performance of In C - and sounded as though she had done that a few times - but there might have been problems with the conductor.

Just for a moment there, I thought you were going to relate some version of the two Ronnies sketch where Ronnie Corbett is giving answers to the last but one question that Ronnie Barker has just delivered!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The idea that a "score" is something one can follow is (of course) not always a useful or appropriate way of thinking about notation.

- but, if I understood Dave correctly, that was the sort of thing he had in mind.

[MrGongGong]

- but, if I understood Dave correctly, that was the sort of thing he had in mind.

Indeed you are right
It's a darn sight easier to follow than your namesakes quartets though
(not that that is any indication of quality or significance)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Slightly off-topic, but when I was at a "String Quartet Forum" about twenty years or so ago, various scores of new works for S4tet were discussed, illustrated, played - Lachenmann, Ferneyhough, Birtwistle, Crumb's Dark Angels - and a new "minimalist" piece. That was the only one in which I got totally lost when trying to follow the score that was handed out to the attendees - the composer had used the available technology to copy and paste the repetitive patterns, so there was system after system of literally identical bars. It struck me at the time that the composer (I forgotten who it was) had missed the best aspects of the Gradual Process style, and produced - intentionally or otherwise - a feeble caricature.

[Dave2002]

- but, if I understood Dave correctly, that was the sort of thing he had in mind.

Indeed, though shouldn't there be some instructions as well as the page with the printed notes? I can see that it's rather "free", and the performers have considerable freedom as to what they play. When we consider "ordinary" scores there is some freedom for performers to do their own thing - giving rise to different interpretations, but there are performance conventions and traditions which might guide the players. Is there an assumption that any musician playing Riley's work is in some way familar with conventions and "traditions" which haven't been written down, or expressed explicitly?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Indeed, though shouldn't there be some instructions as well as the page with the printed notes?

Yes - there is a "page 2" consisting of "Performing Directions":

All performers play from the same page of 53 melodic patterns played in sequence.

Any number of any kind of instruments can play. A group of about 35 is desired if possible but smaller or larger groups will work. If vocalist(s) join in they can use any
vowel and consonant sounds they like.

Patterns are to be played consecutively with each performer having the freedom to determine how many times he or she will repeat each pattern before moving on to the next. There is no fixed rule as to the number of repetitions a pattern may have,however, since performances normally average between 45 minutes and an hour and a half, it can be assumed that one would repeat each pattern from somewhere between 45 seconds and a minute and a half or longer.

It is very important that performers listen very carefully to one another and this means occasionally to drop out and listen. As an ensemble, it is very desirable to play very softly as well as very loudly and to try to diminuendo and crescendo together.

Each pattern can be played in unison or canonically in any alignment with itself or with its neighboring patterns. One of the joys of IN C is the interaction of the players in polyrhythmic combinations that spontaneously arise between patterns. Some quite fantastic shapes will arise and disintegrate as the group moves through the piece when it is properly played.

It is important not to hurry from pattern to pattern but to stay on a pattern long enough to interlock with other patterns being played. As the performance progresses, performers should stay within 2 or 3 patterns of each other. It is important not to race too far ahead or to lag too far behind.

The ensemble can be aided by the means of an eighth note pulse played on the high c’s of the piano or on a mallet instrument. It is also possible to use improvised percussion in strict rhythm (drum set, cymbals, bells, etc.), if it is carefully done and doesn’t overpower the ensemble. All performers must play strictly in rhythm and it is essential that everyone play each pattern carefully. It is advised to rehearse patterns in unison before attempting to play the piece, to determine that everyone is playing correctly.

The tempo is left to the discretion of the performers, obviously not too slow, but not faster than performers can comfortably play.

It is important to think of patterns periodically so that when you are resting you are conscious of the larger periodic composite accents that are sounding, and when you
re-enter you are aware of what effect your entrance will have on the music’s flow.

The group should aim to merge into a unison at least once or twice during the performance. At the same time, if the players seem to be consistently too much in the same alignment of a pattern, they should try shifting their alignment by an eighth note or quarter note with what’s going on in the rest of the ensemble.

It is OK to transpose patterns by an octave, especially to transpose up. Transposing down by octaves works best on the patterns containing notes of long durations.
Augmentation of rhythmic values can also be effective.

If for some reason a pattern can’t be played, the performer should omit it and go on.

Instruments can be amplified if desired. Electronic keyboards are welcome also.

IN C is ended in this way: when each performer arrives at figure #53, he or she stays on it until the entire ensemble has arrived there. The group then makes a large crescendo and diminuendo a few times and each player drops out as he or she wishes.

[Bryn]

I seem to recall, however, that the instructions quoted postdate the score by some years.

This set of instructions is closer to those I was introduced to back in 1969.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I seem to recall, however, that the instructions quoted postdate the score by some years.

Ah! That might explain the dual copyright date on MrGG's #4? (And the differences from other descriptions of the work written before 1989.)

Your link also explains why some of us didn't "remember" the "keep within 2 or 3 patterns of each other" CH mentioned in the programme.

[MrGongGong]

Ah! That might explain the dual copyright date on MrGG's #4? (And the differences from other descriptions of the work written before 1989.)

Your link also explains why some of us didn't "remember" the "keep within 2 or 3 patterns of each other" CH mentioned in the programme.

When I first played it (probably in the late 1970's?) I think we did an ending where everyone was together playing the last figure and stopped simultaneously (in a more "Glassy" style). Not sure where that came from though?

There are, of course, other similar pieces... Dorian Mix, for example