Good cough/bad cough

[MickyD]

The only sort of audience noise I appreciate is that of enthusiasm or laughter if the work or its performance is intentionally funny. I do find that adds to the spirit of it all.

[BBMmk2]

MrsBBM and I get rather annoyed by the cough movements as we call them. Some are pyscological, I’m sure!

[vinteuil]

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... but I wouldn't want to be without that moment in the Schuricht performance of das Lied von der Erde in Amsterdam on 5 October 1939, with the shriek of the heckler -"Deutschland über alles, Herr Schuricht!".

It still shocks.


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[PJPJ]

Oh dear, I don't think I expressed myself that badly. This isn't about whether or not you can tolerate coughing, but whether, under exceptional historical circumstances, it may deepen our appreciation of the music. Would you, who have already been kind enough to reply to this thread, have turned and glared at the coughers in Leningrad in 1942? I simply wonder if anyone can think of other occasions when coughing, or audience noise, might have contributed to the understanding of a piece of music.

No, I think, under the circumstances, I'd have been on 50 a day as well.

[Petrushka]

The only sort of audience noise I appreciate is that of enthusiasm or laughter if the work or its performance is intentionally funny. I do find that adds to the spirit of it all.

Yes, I'm guessing that you have the false endings in Haydn's Symphony No 90 in mind here in which the premature applause and laughter seem to be written into the score. Rattle even recorded two versions of the finale, one with and one without an audience present.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... but I wouldn't want to be without that moment in the Schuricht performance of das Lied von der Erde in Amsterdam on 5 October 1939, with the shriek of the heckler -"Deutschland über alles, Herr Schuricht!".

It still shocks.

But does that help you to "understand" the Music more, vinty?


And was it a "shriek"? Not all the critics reported the incident and some of them hadn't understood what had been said. But most of them agreed in concerned "a lady, or rather a member of the female sex" (De Telegraaf) or even "a bespectacled young lady" (De Courant) sitting in one of the front seats who stood up just before the alto should begin the second part of der Abschied, walked to the rostrum of the conductor, said calmly "Deutschland ueber alles, Herr Schuricht" (with a clear Dutch accent as can be heard on the recording), and left the hall. Because the heckler moved closer to the microphone. what she said was heard more clearly by the radio audience than by most people in the Hall. Her motives are unclear, so I don't follow how her actions add to an understanding of the Music.

[vinteuil]

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... of course it gets in the way of the music qua music. But lordy, it gives you a feeling of the event, of the time.

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[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... of course it gets in the way of the music qua music. But lordy, it gives you a feeling of the event, of the time.

It can be heard in full here (the heckling very clear at c53mins):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pHTvK_qFGM

The woman's motives are completely unknown - was she an anti-Nazi objecting to Schuricht (who had sought and obtained approval from the Nazi authorities to conduct the work) or anti-semitic (objecting to the programming of a work by a Jewish composer)? Either way, why wait until 53mins into the performance to make her protest? (Perhaps she simply disliked Schuricht's performance and couldn't stand listening to it for another second?)

AND ... Schuricht was requested to conduct the work (the opening concert of the 1939-40 season) at short notice after Mengelberg had been taken ill. Which raises the point that, had he been well, we'd've had a recording of Mengelberg conducting Das Lied von der Erde. Wouldn't that have contributed to a greater "understanding" of the Music than this heckling?

[MickyD]

Yes, I'm guessing that you have the false endings in Haydn's Symphony No 90 in mind here in which the premature applause and laughter seem to be written into the score. Rattle even recorded two versions of the finale, one with and one without an audience present.

No, I haven't heard that, but would very much like to...just the effect that Haydn wanted! In a similar vein to 'The Joke' quartet, which often catches people out.

[Darkbloom]

I can't recall the conductor (Furtwangler possibly) but one of the audience said 'Deutschland uber Allies' very loudly during a performance.

[vinteuil]

I can't recall the conductor (Furtwangler possibly) but one of the audience said 'Deutschland uber Allies' very loudly during a performance.

... as in #18 above?


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[greenilex]

When I was listening to paper being scrunched and thrown into the piano at the Dubrovnik Festival in the sixties I often felt a cough coming on...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

When I was listening to paper being scrunched and thrown into the piano at the Dubrovnik Festival in the sixties I often felt a cough coming on...

And did this help you to understand/appreciate the Music? (Would an actual cough have helped you - or the other members of the audience - in this respect?)

[Darkbloom]

... as in #18 above?


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I'll get my coat...

Post in haste, repent at leisure.

[LMcD]

I'll get my coat...

Post in haste, repent at leisure.

Which of us hasn't done that?