Good cough/bad cough

[Bella Kemp]

Listening again to the astounding Peter Schreier/Richter performance of Die Wintereisse recorded in a Dresden February back in the days of the socialist nightmare, I'm struck by how much the incessant coughing of the audience actually adds to the performance: one understands Schubert (and the human condition) better because of it. The same must surely have been true at the first performance of the Leningrad symphony. Coughing isn't necessarily a bad thing at a live performance: it may form a legitimate part in the appreciation of the moment. I wonder if anyone agrees?

[LeMartinPecheur]

Interesting new perspective Bella, one I'll try to remember next time I find myself tempted to shoot a cougher, live or recorded

[visualnickmos]

Listening again to the astounding Peter Schreier/Richter performance of Die Wintereisse recorded in a Dresden February back in the days of the socialist nightmare, I'm struck by how much the incessant coughing of the audience actually adds to the performance: one understands Schubert (and the human condition) better because of it. The same must surely have been true at the first performance of the Leningrad symphony. Coughing isn't necessarily a bad thing at a live performance: it may form a legitimate part in the appreciation of the moment. I wonder if anyone agrees?

I hear what you are saying - and fair enough, but in answer to your question; I don't agree.

[Petrushka]

I hear what you are saying - and fair enough, but in answer to your question; I don't agree.

This most polite and least possibly offensive response is one with which I'm quite happy to be associated.

[Bella Kemp]

Apologies if I have been misunderstood. Perhaps at this stage I should clarify that I'm not talking about the cough to alleviate boredom; but there may be moments in history where coughs - or even shouts and cries - enhance our experience of the music. (I'm thinking now of the premiere of The Rite of Spring.) Let's not think about the average Tuesday night at the RFH, but ponder on history. This thread isn't about whether or not one is irritated by coughing per se.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... but there may be moments in history where coughs - or even shouts and cries - enhance our experience of the music.

Not mine.

[Petrushka]

Apologies if I have been misunderstood. Perhaps at this stage I should clarify that I'm not talking about the cough to alleviate boredom; but there may be moments in history where coughs - or even shouts and cries - enhance our experience of the music. (I'm thinking now of the premiere of The Rite of Spring.) Let's not think about the average Tuesday night at the RFH, but ponder on history. This thread isn't about whether or not one is irritated by coughing per se.

OK, I have better idea now as to where you are coming from. I have many unedited live recordings on CD and elsewhere and in listening to historic performances it is inevitable that audience noise, for better or for worse, becomes part and parcel of the listening experience. We don't possess recordings of the premieres of the Rite or Leningrad, unfortunately, but there is one historic recording I can think of where 'shouts and cries' are in evidence and make for an electric atmosphere in the hall, something which comes across strongly in the recording. I refer to the 1968 Prom given by Svetlanov and the USSR State Symphony Orchestra on the very day that the Soviet Union invaded Czechoslovakia.

[Bella Kemp]

Oh dear, I don't think I expressed myself that badly. This isn't about whether or not you can tolerate coughing, but whether, under exceptional historical circumstances, it may deepen our appreciation of the music. Would you, who have already been kind enough to reply to this thread, have turned and glared at the coughers in Leningrad in 1942? I simply wonder if anyone can think of other occasions when coughing, or audience noise, might have contributed to the understanding of a piece of music.

[Bella Kemp]

Thanks Petrushka! - that's exactly the response I was hoping for.

[Petrushka]

Oh dear, I don't think I expressed myself that badly. This isn't about whether or not you can tolerate coughing, but whether, under exceptional historical circumstances, it may deepen our appreciation of the music. Would you, who have already been kind enough to reply to this thread, have turned and glared at the coughers in Leningrad in 1942? I simply wonder if anyone can think of other occasions when coughing, or audience noise, might have contributed to the understanding of a piece of music.

I'm not sure that even my 1968 Prom example would necessarily contribute 'to the understanding' of the music but it does give an insight, quite by chance, of audience reaction to a contemporary historic event, the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia at a concert that coincidentally included the Dvorak Cello Concerto.

In the RCO125 set there are some live recordings given by the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam during the Nazi occupation. These are given complete with audience applause and inter-movement 'noise' and you do wonder in passing how many in that audience were German soldiers or how the Dutch members were experiencing the occupation. It doesn't enhance the music but is, again, part and parcel of the listening experience. Ditto Furtwangler's war-time concerts.

[Bryn]

Well, as mentioned a few days ago, due to a current annoyingly persistent cough, I recently absented myself from a concert I had been looking forward to. What really annoys me is the way so many coughers fail to make any real attempt to stifle their eructations. I am now hoping my cough subsides over the next 2 weeks. There are concerts on the 7th, 13th and 25th of next month which I have no intention of missing. I might have to resort to a suitable suppressant for those evenings, medication I usually try to avoid. I can think of no situation in which coughing might actually enhance a musical performance, unless, of course, it was a fully intended part of the performance itself.

[Bella Kemp]

Well said. Thank you.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Oh dear, I don't think I expressed myself that badly.

Oh, no - you've expressed your point very well - I just don't agree with it.

This isn't about whether or not you can tolerate coughing, but whether, under exceptional historical circumstances, it may deepen our appreciation of the music.

No; not mine.

Would you, who have already been kind enough to reply to this thread, have turned and glared at the coughers in Leningrad in 1942?

I never glare or tut at fellow concert-goers when they cough - if they chatter during the performance, I ask them to stop.

I simply wonder if anyone can think of other occasions when coughing, or audience noise, might have contributed to the understanding of a piece of music.

I cannot think of any occasion when any noise coming between the performance and my listening to it would ever "contributed to my understanding" of it. It's like asking me if someone shoving their hand in front of the page I'm reading might help me understand a novel, or someone wearing a large hat standing in front of me helps me appreciate the painting I'm trying to look at.

[richardfinegold]

The famous Sofia performance of Richter performing Pictures At An Exhibition sounds like it was recorded in a TB San. I love the performance and have endured the bronchial Bulgaraians for decades but was quite happy to learn that there were alternative recordings by Richter with a much quitter audience

[LMcD]

If a composer seriously thinks that coughing might enhance the listener's appreciation of the work, perhaps he or she should include a note to that effect in the score....
What I find particularly irritating is that half-hearted smattering of applause which mars performances of certain works. If you watch Petrenko's Elgar 2, there's a minor outburst at the end of the 1st movement, less at the end of the 2nd, and - mercifully - none thereafter. A performance of a musical work is not the same thing as a tennis match!