How Much Knowledge Do Leading Conductors Have of the Leading Symphonists?

[Lat-Literal]

....perhaps especially in their teens, 20s and 30s.

If they were conducting, say, Brahms 3 or Sibelius 5, how many times in their lifetime would they have heard the symphony before embarking on rehearsals?
To what extent would they be focussed at the outset on the score, ie reading rather than listening?
Would it be important to them to know well every symphony by, say, Brahms or Sibelius if Brahms or Sibelius were to be performed so as to have a broad context?
And would most already be familiar with every leading symphony, be that by Haydn or Mozart, Beethoven or Tchaikovsky, Mahler or Shostakovich etc?

This is asked with the knowledge that many are ultimately identified with having "championed" some composers and not having involved themselves very much in others professionally.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Are there any "leading conductors" in their "teens"?

The answer is probably about the same level of knowledge as pianists in their teens, twenties and thirties know of the leading compositions for piano; or singers of ... or 'cellists of ... or actors of the leading playwrights.

(And "reading" a score is not a separate thing from "listening" to it: just as when you read a novel, you "listen to" the different voices of the characters and the narrator. Performers about to present a new work for the first time - whether they're in their teens, twenties or eighties - will not have "heard" the work before they receive the score. They're probably not as lucky when they come to prepare to perform as familiar a concert favourite as Tchaikovsky's 5th - but one hopes that they would try and at least pretend that they hadn't heard it before, and concentrate on the score as of they were presenting it for the first time, and not make the error of trying to reproduce their favourite recording of it.)

[Lat-Literal]

Are there any "leading conductors" in their "teens"?

The answer is probably about the same level of knowledge as pianists in their teens, twenties and thirties know of the leading compositions for piano; or singers of ... or 'cellists of ... or actors of the leading playwrights.

(And "reading" a score is not a separate thing from "listening" to it: just as when you read a novel, you "listen to" the different voices of the characters and the narrator. Performers about to present a new work for the first time - whether they're in their teens, twenties or eighties - will not have "heard" the work before they receive the score. They're probably not as lucky when they come to prepare to perform as familiar a concert favourite as Tchaikovsky's 5th - but one hopes that they would try and at least pretend that they hadn't heard it before, and concentrate on the score as of they were presenting it for the first time, and not make the error of trying to reproduce their favourite recording of it.)

Well, I was really wondering what they would have been familiar with in their teens and early twenties before becoming who they were. Would they have known all of Beethoven's symphonies, all of Bruckner's, all of Havergal Brian's? No, on second thoughts, skip the Havergal Brian. Those who produce The Gothic probably have to do so not knowing much of Brian's other works. But from what you say I am concluding that several of the enthusiasts on this forum would have a broader knowledge than an elderly Bernstein or Beecham.

Is this conclusion likely to be right?

(I can make a modest claim of having listened to more than 50% of Cowell's and Hovhaness's but would duck for cover if questioned on some big symphonies by very big people)

[Serial_Apologist]

Well, I was really wondering what they would have been familiar with in their teens and early twenties before becoming who they were. Would they have known all of Beethoven's symphonies, all of Bruckner's, all of Havergal Brian's? No, on second thoughts, skip the Havergal Brian. Those who produce The Gothic probably have to do so not knowing much of Brian's other works. But from what you say I am concluding that several of the enthusiasts on this forum would have a broader knowledge than an elderly Bernstein or Beecham.

Is this conclusion likely to be right?

The different conservatories educating in this field would have different agendas, I imagine, making generalisations hard to arrive at.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But from what you say I am concluding that several of the enthusiasts on this forum would have a broader knowledge than an elderly Bernstein or Beecham.

Is this conclusion likely to be right?

("Elderly Bernstein or Beecham" is quite a distance from your OP "teens, twenties and thirties"!)

"Broader knowledge" of what? Many of us almost certainly know the Music of Monteverdi or Machaut better than did Beecham, and the pre-Paris Symphonies of Haydn and the Cantatas of Bach better than either of them. But whether any of us could play Bruckner's 8th on the piano from memory ...

I "knew" (inverted commas, because I'm still learning them) all the Beethoven Symphonies and Concertos and the last three numbered Symphonies of Tchaikovsky by the age of fifteen, all Brahms' and Sibelius' by seventeen, all Mahler's (and most of the "famous" Haydn & Mozart) by eighteen. I presume that that was true of practically all my contemporaries who sought careers as conductors of that sort of repertoire at that time (or who, like me, were just interested in it).

Earlier generations would have learnt the repertoire from working at them through piano (duet) arrangements - and as members of orchestras. Karajan recounts how as students, the conductor class would take turns to conduct the "basic" repertoire with the other students playing piano. And then the successful ones would get jobs as repetiteurs at opera houses - accompanying rehearsals (which might mean teaching them the Music) with soloists and chorus, standing in for indisposed conductors, being given the "dross" repertoire that the higher conductors didn't want to touch (and, in Karajan's case, pushing his boss's baby's pram to try and get it to sleep). Years later, and with an orchestra consisting of those who bothered to turn up for the novice, they'd be granted a Bellini, or Lortzing, or (if they were lucky) Carmen as the first step on their individual career. (Operatic repertoire was more important than Concert until well into the 20th Century.)

But things were as different between the generations of Toscanini and Solti as they are between Solti and Edward Gardner.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A 27-year old conductor called John Barbirolli was called upon at very short notice to conduct a concert that included the rarely heard (in the 1920s) Elgar Symphony no. 2. He learnt the score virtually overnight and gave a performance that pleased the composer and Fred Gaisberg, who gave him a recording contract with His Master's Voice.

[MrGongGong]

All depends on who you are conducting

I conducted the Philharmonia once, they really didn't need me at all, I could have danced about making wild gestures and pulling faces (in a KD stylee?) and it wouldn't have made much difference. They sussed me out in 10 seconds (but DID ask me questions about the piece).

Conducting a youth orchestra is much more taxing (ish)

[Serial_Apologist]

All depends on who you are conducting

I conducted the Philharmonia once, they really didn't need me at all, I could have danced about making wild gestures and pulling faces (in a KD stylee?) and it wouldn't have made much difference. They sussed me out in 10 seconds (but DID ask me questions about the piece).

Conducting a youth orchestra is much more taxing (ish)

Your experience brings to mind Kenneth Williams's treatment in that marvellous 1961 film "Raising the Wind", with its cast drawn from the "Doctor" series.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Your experience brings to mind Kenneth Williams's treatment in that marvellous 1961 film "Raising the Wind", with its cast drawn from the "Doctor" series.

Or "Carry on ..."?

[Serial_Apologist]

Or "Carry on ..."?

"Or both, heh heh heh!" - Dudley Moore, in Beyond the Fringe.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Or "Carry on ..."?

??? Was Herbert von in the film?!

[MrGongGong]

Your experience brings to mind Kenneth Williams's treatment in that marvellous 1961 film "Raising the Wind", with its cast drawn from the "Doctor" series.

I would like to think that the really successful part this, for me, was the excellent score which contained all that was necessary

[Serial_Apologist]

I would like to think that the really successful part this, for me, was the excellent score which contained all that was necessary

Bruce Montgomery's score:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Crispin