The pioneers of minimalism - BBC4 21:00 today

[jean]

It was fascinating. Made lots of connexions I wouldn't have thought of.

There weren't many women involved, were there? I know Charlotte Moorman wasn't a composer but I thought she did at least deserve a credit for performing naked like that.

Charles Hazlewood was on Saturday Live this mornng, talking about how the discovery of Minimalism brought him back to Classical music. His account of how he discovered that conducting was what he needed to do verged on the incredible.

[Richard Barrett]

I was left with the impression that, rather as in some 20th century fine art, the concept is more important than the result.

That's certainly the case with some things like the many postcard-scores composed by Yoko Ono in the 1960s - imagining a performance is sufficient (and in many cases as close as it's possible to get), but this really isn't true of the music under discussion in this programme. There is no conceptual contemplation that comes anywhere near the experience of something like Young's The Well-Tuned Piano - indeed it would be hard to define what the "concept" of a piece like that, or for that matter what the "concept" of most of Young and Riley's work, actually is, except by experiencing the work in its full timescale.

[MrGongGong]

That's certainly the case with some things like the many postcard-scores composed by Yoko Ono in the 1960s - imagining a performance is sufficient (and in many cases as close as it's possible to get), but this really isn't true of the music under discussion in this programme. There is no conceptual contemplation that comes anywhere near the experience of something like Young's The Well-Tuned Piano - indeed it would be hard to define what the "concept" of a piece like that, or for that matter what the "concept" of most of Young and Riley's work, actually is, except by experiencing the work in its full timescale.

Exactly

There have been many comments elsewhere that this music was somehow only interesting for what came later
which IMV misses the point

Jean's point about women was also commented on elsehwere by the one woman who WAS on the programme

As for mysic being "conceptual" ?
I struggle to understand why this is somehow seen as a "bad" thing?

[Richard Barrett]

I was thinking of getting around to watching this programme, but unfortunately I chanced upon Hazlewood's piece about it in today's Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/mar/02/minimalism-music-revolution-charles-hazelwood

and got so irritated that I decided against it. Apparently, minimal music "unashamedly combined the rigours of classical music with the rebel spirit of rock’n’roll." At least he admits at the outset that he was an organ scholar at Oxford so we know how insightful his view of the "rebel spirit of rock'n'roll" is likely to be.

[Barbirollians]

Kraftwerk and Japan I would not have described as rock n roll .

[MrGongGong]

and got so irritated that I decided against it. Apparently, minimal music "unashamedly combined the rigours of classical music with the rebel spirit of rock’n’roll."

I would give it a go
The Phillip Glass gigs I went to in the 1980's were more like going to see a rock band, very loud and relentless. A far cry from the stuff he went on to compose.
La Monte Young at the Barbican a few (?) years ago was also more in the spirit of the Greatful Dead than Schubert
so I, kind of, see what he is getting at... though there's more to it than that (as you know)

Kraftwerk and Japan I would not have described as rock n roll .

When I worked with the Vienna Vegetable Orchestra they described Kraftwerk as "Folk Music" ... spot on

[Richard Barrett]

Kraftwerk and Japan I would not have described as rock n roll .

Quite.

[teamsaint]

You might not call Kraftwerk rock and roll, but their influence and audience was predominantly rock based , i suggest. I saw them in 1980,and it was still a rock style event, with a rock audience, in a rock venue. Amazing, event, in any event !

Japan clearly operated within rock music norms,( including an element of stylistic rebelliousness) even if pushing at the edges a bit, maybe that isnt the same as rock and roll.

What’s in a name though?

[Richard Barrett]

You might not call Kraftwek rock and roll, but their influence and audience was predominantly rock based , i suggest. I saw them in 1980,and it was still a rock style event, with a rock audience, in a rock venue. Amazing, event, in any event !

Japan clearly operated within rock music norms,( including an element of stylistic rebelliousness) even if pushing at the edges a bit, maybe that isnt the same as rock and roll.

Don't get me wrong, I admire both groups, and in fact I went to see Kraftwerk only a week ago, it was quite something. But they are sort of what you'd expect an Oxford organ scholar's view of "rock'n'roll" in (presumably) the early/mid-80s to consist of, rather than say the Fall or Iron Maiden or New Order to name a few random examples. As is the assumption that there's something radical about listening to musics apart from the classical repertoire. Everyone does, everyone always has, at least in less rarefied social/cultural circles, doesn't he realise that?

[Beef Oven!]

You might not call Kraftwek rock and roll, but their influence and audience was predominantly rock based , i suggest. I saw them in 1980,and it was still a rock style event, with a rock audience, in a rock venue. Amazing, event, in any event !

Japan clearly operated within rock music norms,( including an element of stylistic rebelliousness) even if pushing at the edges a bit, maybe that isnt the same as rock and roll.

What’s in a name though?

Japan are certainly Rock n Roll within the context given, but Kraftwerk, as rebellious as they were, are non-blues based and can't really be described as R&R, IMO.

It might be worthwhile to point out that when we say R&R, we don't mean drapes, duck arses or blue suede shoes.

[teamsaint]

Japan are certainly Rock n Roll within the context given, but Kraftwerk, as rebellious as they were, are non-blues based and can't really be described as R&R, IMO.

It might be worthwhile to point out that when we say R&R, we don't mean drapes, duck arses or blue suede shoes.

I wouldnt call them R and R, but their music operates to a great extent in rock contexts, is all.


Going back to how musicians from predominantly classical backgrounds might perceive unfamiliar music(s) one of my daughter’s tutors on her music BA course claimed never to have heard of Kraftwerk.

[MrGongGong]

I wouldnt call them R and R, but their music operates to a great extent in rock contexts, is all.


Going back to how musicians from predominantly classical backgrounds might perceive unfamiliar music(s) one of my daughter’s tutors on her music BA course claimed never to have heard of Kraftwerk.

Come on spill the beans

[teamsaint]

Come on spill the beans

I can’t name the name , even if I wanted to, but the course was the BA. at Southampton University. The course there is a reasonably traditional BA I would say,although it does have a strong emphasis on rock and jazz as well as classical in the performance modules.
IIRC the subject of Kraftwek came up during an essay on presentation of music on video, but I could be wrong about that. An essay assignment at any rate.


( going back to Beefy’s point about Rock, Kraftwerk’s The Model for example is surely rooted in blues/ R and B chord patterns ?)

[MrGongGong]

I can’t name the name , even if I wanted to, but the course was the BA. at Southampton University. The course there is a reasonably traditional BA I would say,although it does have a strong emphasis on rock and jazz as well as classical in the performance modules.
IIRC the subject of Kraftwek came up during an essay on presentation of music on video, but I could be wrong about that. An essay assignment at any rate.

It wasn’t David Owen Norris, incidentally.

It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant some folks are about the cultures of music in the world
It equally applies IMV to those who ask "who's Metallica" as to those who profess to know nothing about notation and instruements even though the spend their lives making music.

[Beef Oven!]

I can’t name the name , even if I wanted to, but the course was the BA. at Southampton University. The course there is a reasonably traditional BA I would say,although it does have a strong emphasis on rock and jazz as well as classical in the performance modules.
IIRC the subject of Kraftwek came up during an essay on presentation of music on video, but I could be wrong about that. An essay assignment at any rate.


( going back to Beefy’s point about Rock, Kraftwerk’s The Model for example is surely rooted in blues/ R and B chord patterns ?)

Are you inferring that Kraftwerk are a blues-based rock band?