Elgar/Payne Symphony No 3 - is it to fade out of sight ?

[ahinton]

2 of 2

Given this, and also the war effort in which it wasn't the fascists who won, one might have thought that in theory it would have been the British who were ultimately victorious in music. As it was, the true victor and probably rightly so was the German music which the Germans themselves had either used for distorted purposes or banned. The ultimate rebellion - rebellion is another key word of the 1960s - was and is to restore to former glory what has subsequently been warped and all that has been banned not by states but by overly oppressive state regimes. Unlike any form of any state, rebellion is something that can be fully comprehended internationally. It isn't stuck in time. It can arise anywhere at any time. As such, it will always have relevance. Here the Elgar versus Mahler consideration, while comprehensible, is something of a phony war. To the extent that contrasts and comparisons are made, it should be between Elgar and Beethoven. While Beethoven was favoured by the Nazis, "Ode to Joy" in particular was used too during the war by opponents in ways that emphasised contention. It has ever since been rebel music in all manner of places. That is, from its adoption by the forerunners of the EU whose organisational approaches were in many respects intended to be a formal rebellion against concepts of the nation state to its use by Chinese students in Tianenmen Square. Elgar couldn't compete with that sort of weight.

Let's introduce another word here. It is "Enigma". One might note in line with what has previously been said that the machine which cracked the Enigma code was made and named in Germany. Additionally, there is the interesting point that Elgar took pains to refute that the enigma in his "Variations" had anything whatsoever to do with "Auld Lang Syne", thereby reinforcing a sense of Englishness rather than Britishness if not one that was distinct from the German. The greatest enigma may well be just how non enigmatic Elgar's placing happens to be in the English national psyche. So firm in foot is it at least in simplistic perception that it is very hard indeed to think how any near equivalent to President Macron could be elected as he was to the backdrop of, yes, Beethoven's "Ode to Joy". A rebellious statement, no doubt. One that was not designed for the promotion of France but rather to symbolise with the greatest of force the new President's European credentials. In contrast, it is worth noting the music chosen for one of the most memorable occasions in our country in recent years. Charles and Diana had selections from most of the main British composers but the deliberate emphasis was to play down the politics and choose compositions from their "softer end".

As I suggested in earlier posts, none of this bodes well for Payne/Elgar in Europe. While there may well have been more performances of Elgar in Europe than we might imagine, that doesn't mean that the reception to Elgar there has ever been overwhelming. There are just too many obstacles of history, philosophy and psychology. It isn't even as if Payne can be given any supposedly positive spin of watering down Elgar. It is so clear that he was of the intention to contribute to Elgar's standing. As for this country, the fact that Symphony 3 is not "pure Elgar" is likely to be to its detriment along with the fact it arrived at a time when it could be seen as at odds with internationalism. Possibly had Payne's completing of a sixth march in Pomp and Circumstance been a runaway success, things might have been different but it appears that it hasn't exactly found its place among modern British audiences.

I was, though, wrong on one point. There is one other comparison or contrast to be made. It is Elgar versus Ives. For the Enigma Variations, see also The Unanswered Question. While hardly comparable musically, there is a similar mind set that underpins the two works in concept. The only difference is that Ives is musically truly enigmatic. Especially but not only in the United States, compositions by Elgar and Ives are not infrequently performed together on the same night. In fact, on occasions, it is Elgar, Ives and Beethoven which, however unlikely that combination might appear, is very astute in what it asks audiences to consider. Elgar and Ives have also been recorded together on disc. They were both admired by Mahler. Elgar was for a while quite close to Horatio Parker who had taught Ives composition when he was at Yale. Ives the rebel who was "out with the old and in with the new" is now Ives the composer who can be embraced by the American establishment. Elgar has long been a feature of graduation ceremonies throughout the United States. Consequently, I suggest that if Payne's Elgar 3 is to have a future any future concentration would be best there. If that fails, it would also be worth bearing in mind that Elgar is also a feature in similar formal occasions in Canada and indeed the Philippines. Britain is not its best bet for success and any question of a future in Europe is almost certainly answered in history by the word "no".

Oh, I promised to say a little more about Nimrod. No one of that name is known to have existed. However, one version is that he is a monarch who rebels against God. Perhaps then we can locate a bit of rebellion in Elgar's music after all. Another will have British Muslims upset if the academics ever get their hands on it. One can see it easily turning into a tabloid story and then a petition to Parliament. So it might well be in the long run that Payne's version of Elgar is ironically Elgar's guarantor. Not being Nimrod, it isn't a Nimrod for anybody's back.

All of this is most interesting and many thanks for reposting it.

One problem that I have (if it is a problem per se, which I don't believe it to be) is this cloak of "Englishness" that certain people remain determined to make him wear at all times; I simply don't see it (or rather hear it) in his major works at all and, in any case, I'm not sure what it is and how it might be identified. Elgar was once reprimanded for paying insufficient attention to English folk music, to which he retorted something along the lines of "I am a composer and I am one of the folk, therefore I write folk music". Leaving aside Elgar's unfortunate habit of toadying to the "establishment" in the hope of somehow "bettering" himself, it seems to me that, for the most part, the jingoistic head-in-the-sand "pomp-and-circumstance" stuff has largely been thrust upon him and his work rather than being inherently a part of him; let's not forget that he wasn't at all keen to have the text of Land of Hope and Glory thrust upon the central section of his Pomp and Circumstance March No. 1 despite the suggestion coming from his buddy Eddie the Seventh, yet there remain some people who believe that his melody is a setting of those words by Arthur Christopher Benson which do the piece no favours whatsoever. Did Busoni consider the Enigma Variations to be redolent of Englishry when conducting one of the early German performances of it? Isn't there something rather more Austro-Germanic about Elgar's finest works (Alassio especially)? Elgar and Strauss were not merely friends, the elder composer being open to the influence of the younger one. The brash, swaggering confidence that inhabits much of Cockaigne (one of my least favourite Elgar works, notwithstanding the skill that went into its composition) strikes me as bordering on the self-mocking, not least because it seems worlds away from the music of the symphonies, concertos and the rest.

To return to the topic of the Third Symphony, those who question the reasoning behind and the wisdom of expending all of that creative/recreative energy on the work of a composer who died at least 35 years before Tony Payne first set eyes on those sketches surely need only to realise that it was the composer in Tony that was so drawn - again and again - to them that, ultimately, he just had to try to turn them into something that might be akin to what Elgar himself might have achieved had death not stood in his way; after all, the "permission" that was declined by the Elgar Estate could extend only to publication and performance - they couldn't stop him doing his work and, at that point, he'd already done quite a lot of it and, by the time that they saw sense and officially commissioned it (having been persuaded that the sketches would soon enter the public domain whereafter anyone could have a go), he'd almost completed it.

20 years after its public première, that Third Symphony still stikes me as something of a case apart from the Schubert/Newbould, Mahler/Cooke/Goldschmidt/Matthewses, Bruckner/SPCM et al examples, not least because Tony Payne had so much less information to go on than did any of the others; it's interesting (to me, at any rate) that several conductors couldn't tell which was Elgar and which was Payne in the score until it was pointed out to them. As to the future of the work anywhere, I would hope that this would be more dependent upon whether audiences think that it's any good and want to listen to it than upon any other nationalistic/political/what-you-will reasons; it's an "English" work only in the sense and to the extent that Elgar was himself English, beyond that minor consideration, it's an international piece with more central European inflections than English ones, as could be said of much of Elgar's other music.

[Lat-Literal]

All of this is most interesting and many thanks for reposting it.

One problem that I have (if it is a problem per se, which I don't believe it to be) is this cloak of "Englishness" that certain people remain determined to make him wear at all times; I simply don't see it (or rather hear it) in his major works at all and, in any case, I'm not sure what it is and how it might be identified. Elgar was once reprimanded for paying insufficient attention to English folk music, to which he retorted something along the lines of "I am a composer and I am one of the folk, therefore I write folk music". Leaving aside Elgar's unfortunate habit of toadying to the "establishment" in the hope of somehow "bettering" himself, it seems to me that, for the most part, the jingoistic head-in-the-sand "pomp-and-circumstance" stuff has largely been thrust upon him and his work rather than being inherently a part of him; let's not forget that he wasn't at all keen to have the text of Land of Hope and Glory thrust upon the central section of his Pomp and Circumstance March No. 1 despite the suggestion coming from his buddy Eddie the Seventh, yet there remain some people who believe that his melody is a setting of those words by Arthur Christopher Benson which do the piece no favours whatsoever. Did Busoni consider the Enigma Variations to be redolent of Englishry when conducting one of the early German performances of it? Isn't there something rather more Austro-Germanic about Elgar's finest works (Alassio especially)? Elgar and Strauss were not merely friends, the elder composer being open to the influence of the younger one. The brash, swaggering confidence that inhabits much of Cockaigne (one of my least favourite Elgar works, notwithstanding the skill that went into its composition) strikes me as bordering on the self-mocking, not least because it seems worlds away from the music of the symphonies, concertos and the rest.

To return to the topic of the Third Symphony, those who question the reasoning behind and the wisdom of expending all of that creative/recreative energy on the work of a composer who died at least 35 years before Tony Payne first set eyes on those sketches surely need only to realise that it was the composer in Tony that was so drawn - again and again - to them that, ultimately, he just had to try to turn them into something that might be akin to what Elgar himself might have achieved had death not stood in his way; after all, the "permission" that was declined by the Elgar Estate could extend only to publication and performance - they couldn't stop him doing his work and, at that point, he'd already done quite a lot of it and, by the time that they saw sense and officially commissioned it (having been persuaded that the sketches would soon enter the public domain whereafter anyone could have a go), he'd almost completed it.

20 years after its public première, that Third Symphony still stikes me as something of a case apart from the Schubert/Newbould, Mahler/Cooke/Goldschmidt/Matthewses, Bruckner/SPCM et al examples, not least because Tony Payne had so much less information to go on than did any of the others; it's interesting (to me, at any rate) that several conductors couldn't tell which was Elgar and which was Payne in the score until it was pointed out to them. As to the future of the work anywhere, I would hope that this would be more dependent upon whether audiences think that it's any good and want to listen to it than upon any other nationalistic/political/what-you-will reasons; it's an "English" work only in the sense and to the extent that Elgar was himself English, beyond that minor consideration, it's an international piece with more central European inflections than English ones, as could be said of much of Elgar's other music.

Thank you.

A couple of clarifications.

I've altered the word "cracked" in my posts to "brought" - the first was a slip of the keys.

Secondly, I haven't "reposted". It is all my own essay, with my own opinions, which I knocked out before breakfast today.

No, I don't doubt that the music isn't especially English if such a thing could be defined other than in national connotation. What I often see on You Tube is well meaning people putting up images of the English countryside to accompany Elgar just as they do with all of RVW. It jars with me because it doesn't fit well with Elgar or even half of the Vaughan Williams stuff.

As for the English or British state, that is as I have suggested somewhat German because of royalty so any stately music with a German sound from an English composer is a perfect match. If Elgar hadn't been around, he would have needed to have been invented. Few other countries need an Elgar because few of them have or need as significant a royal family.

I believe strongly that all of it has a direct bearing on Payne/Elgar 3. If it was Payne/Simpson or Payne/Cooke, the expectations about presence would merely be in line with the existing "non" levels of presence of Simpson or Cooke. As it is, there are certain additional expectations. But if they are not met then, sure, the music will have to stand or fall in its own right.

That might well mean having about as many performances and broadcasts as the likes of Simpson and Cooke receive. If people are comfortable with that being the definition of it having a future then that is absolutely fine. It is just that the OP did not quite frame the question in that way. It was made specifically in reference to a perceived tailing off from a higher point.

[ahinton]

I haven't "reposted". It is all my own essay, with my own opinions, which I knocked out before breakfast today.

I knew that it was your work but wrongly assumed you to have reposted something that you'd posted previously; sorry about that!

No, I don't doubt that the music isn't especially English if such a thing could be defined other than in national connotation. What I often see on You Tube is well meaning people putting up images of the English countryside to accompany Elgar just as they do with all of RVW. It jars with me because it doesn't fit with Elgar or even half of the Vaughan Williams stuff.

I know; it irks me, too. Fortunately, the few things of mine that have been uploaded there include no images of kilts, raspberries (especially those!), thistles, haggis/neeps/tatties or glasses of fine single malt.

As for the English or British state, that is as I have suggested somewhat German because of royalty so any stately music with a German sound from an English composer is a perfect match. If Elgar hadn't been around, he would have needed to have been invented. Few other countries need an Elgar because few of them have or need as significant a royal family.

Whilst I get your point about royalty insofar as it goes, no "country" needs Elgar; only individual listeners do.

I believe strongly that all of it has a direct bearing on Payne/Elgar 3. If it was Payne/Simpson or Payne/Cooke, the expectations about presence would merely be in line with the existing levels of presence of Simpson or Cooke. As it is, there are certain additional expectations. But if they are not met then, sure, the music will have to stand or fall in its own right.

That might well mean having about as many performances and broadcasts as the likes of Simpson and Cooke receive. And if that is it people are comfortable with that being the definition of it having a future then that is absolutely fine.

The notion of the music needing to stand or fall in its own right is spot on, albeit subject to the vagaries of fashion to which you've already alluded in your earlier observations about not only Elgar but also Mahler.

[Lat-Literal]

I knew that it was your work but wrongly assumed you to have reposted something that you'd posted previously; sorry about that!

I know; it irks me, too. Fortunately, the few things of mine that have been uploaded there include no images of kilts, raspberries (especially those!), thistles, haggis/neeps/tatties or glasses of fine single malt.

Whilst I get your point about royalty insofar as it goes, no "country" needs Elgar; only individual listeners do.

The notion of the music needing to stand or fall in its own right is spot on, albeit subject to the vagaries of fashion to which you've already alluded in your earlier observations about not only Elgar but also Mahler.

Yes - thank you.

Some of us don't believe in sleeping all through the night.

I do hope your YT clips are accompanied by something as the worst of the lot is an entirely black rectangle.

Re your "no "country" needs Elgar; only individual listeners do", I see that as your preference.

I don't have a preference in this regard but have tried to capture the current English essence of the existing relationship between individual and state.

(This is not to exclude Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but more people in those countries would wish to suggest that they have a different angle)

[BBMmk2]

With regards to Forum Members posting long contributions, I find them rather difficult to take in. I’ve been like this ever since my cancer treatment. I was just wondering if it’s at all possible for Members to write more concise posts?

[Lat-Literal]

With regards to Forum Members posting long contributions, I find them rather difficult to take in. I’ve been like this ever since my cancer treatment. I was just wondering if it’s at all possible for Members to write more concise posts?

I am sorry to hear of your difficulties Brassbandmaestro and I wish you well.

Typing is not so easy for me these days, also for medical reasons.

I realise that not everyone will choose to read what I write.

Much of what I am doing is completing what I want to do given other uncertainties.

But - my posts vary in length considerably - I find it very hard to equate the wish for only brief posts on this forum and - you are far from alone in this - the absolute opposite instinct expressed towards Radio 3 where brevity and the avoidance of attempts at depth are consistently condemned. Indeed, the latter in many ways is a part of this forum's raison d'etre.

[ahinton]

Some of us don't believe in sleeping all through the night.

Some others of us can't do it, either!...

I do hope your YT clips are accompanied by something as the worst of the lot is an entirely black rectangle.

One's up there twice, the first being of an entire recital including one of my piano pieces - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoTJqYR-sWA - and is accompanied throughout by a still of the performer and the second - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zajaODQl_oM - being just that piece accompanied by stills first of the composer, then of the pianist Nicola Ventrella (I have no idea why!) and finally of the performer; the other's of a piece for euphonium and piano - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zor9ervMNtI - which is accompanied simply by a white page with details of the piece and performance. So no irrelevant landscapes or anything like that...

Re your "no "country" needs Elgar; only individual listeners do", I see that as your preference.

Well, that's your prerogative, of course, just as it's mone to see it as plan fact, since "countries" don't listen to Elgar, only individual listeners do!

I don't have a preference in this regard but have tried to capture the current English essence of the existing relationship between individual and state.

(This is not to exclude Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but more people in those countries would wish to suggest that they have a different angle)

That relationship has, however, never been in such a state of flux as it is now and much the same could be said of that between England and UK's other three constituent parts, the reasons for all of which I won't and don't need to state!

[BBMmk2]

Many thanks, Lat-Lit. Please call me BBM!

It's a shame that some people cannot discuss certain topics in a more civilised manner,. From what I have read on your contributiions, Lat-Lit and others have been very informative. A pity I am not able to read through them more thoroughly! Sympathises for your health problems.

[Lat-Literal]

Many thanks, Lat-Lit. Please call me BBM!

It's a shame that some people cannot discuss certain topics in a more civilised manner,. From what I have read on your contributiions, Lat-Lit and others have been very informative. A pity I am not able to read through them more thoroughly! Sympathises for your health problems.

Thank you for your understanding BBM. Currently my health problems are not in line with yours so I can only imagine how that sadly affects daily routines. I would say that mine are of the appearance of being neurological so it's a bit of a battle between wanting to say and do and what the body is telling me. Anyhow, I'm back at the GP in 23 mins so will sign off now.

[BBMmk2]

Thank you for your understanding BBM. Currently my health problems are not in line with yours so I can only imagine how that sadly affects daily routines. I would say that mine are of the appearance of being neurological so it's a bit of a battle between wanting to say and do and what the body is telling me. Anyhow, I'm back at the GP in 23 mins so will sign off now.

Send me a PM if you like.

[ahinton]

Sorry to hear of L-L's and BBM's health issues which I hope are both being treated well and kept under control.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Sorry to hear of L-L's and BBM's health issues which I hope are both being treated well and kept under control.

[visualnickmos]

Sorry to hear of L-L's and BBM's health issues which I hope are both being treated well and kept under control.

Sending L-L and BBM all good wishes -

[Darkbloom]

Probably comes down to a point of view, then.

Anyway,
Just a few random examples of things going out of fashion:

Bantock. Songs from the Chinese Poets. Published 1918, 7 proms performances by 1940, none since.

Peter Racine Fricker. 8 proms performances, almost all in the fifties and sixties.

Henze symphonies. A group of performances around 1995 to 2000, and not much , if anything , since.

Looking at the Proms archive briefly, one might draw the conclusion that British composers ( used to) get perhaps undue attention during their lifetime, ( check out Bantock and Cowen, hundreds of Proms performances way back when) , and that time doesn't do appreciation of their music any favours.

My suggestion would be for Suffolk Coastal to get working on one of his spreadsheets and prove whatever needs proving.

I'd guess that most people have only heard of Fricker via a line in Lucky Jim, ('aren't you you going to stay for the P Racine Fricker?'). That's probably less well known than the bit about Dixon hearing 'a skein of untiring facetiousness from filthy Mozart'.

[LMcD]

The first Proms performance from 1998 (mentioned by Pet and others earlier in the Thread) is available on youTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnor-Hg7Utc

... as is the second Proms outing, conducted by Martyn Brabbins in 2004 (mentioned by Sir Velo); preceded by an out-of-lip-sync interview with Payne by Verity Sharpe, with contributions by Tom Service:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BKyxKWHkFw

I've just watched the Andrew Davies performance. I was particularly struck by the beautiful playing of the quieter passages. In passing, I noticed that James Naughtie referred to it as 'the Elgar/Payne 3rd symphony', which is how I think of it - not that it really matters that much - does it? - what it's called...